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Post by Prince Myshkin on Sept 18, 2021 8:23:49 GMT
I know it's the vestige of the Whigs.
But the Labour Party has long since replaced it as the party on the left.
Sure, it plays a useful part in forming coalitions in Parliament.
But what is its real purpose and what is its niche in 21st century British politics?
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Post by Flying Monkeys (Flying/Monkeys on Sept 18, 2021 9:44:53 GMT
It's basically a party of indecision so it attracts ditherers and those of an enfeebled mind.
Left-wing people with a bit of money so they don't want to mix with the working class (Labour) but they definitely don't want to be right-wing (Conservative, in their view).
Sort of beardy intellectuals who either delusionally think everyone is great in the world so nothing needs to be done or are completely afraid of doing anything.
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Post by yggdrasil on Sept 18, 2021 10:07:22 GMT
They would probably get the vote of left wingers who find the Labour Party too right wing but still have a chance of winning seats in certain areas. A lot of people who dislike the Conservatives vote tactically between them and Labour as to who has the best chance of unseating the Tory MP.
Going into an alliance with the Conservatives in 2010 nearly destroyed them politically as they reneged on left wing policies for a seat at the big table, but are slowly building themselves up again. Their main problem , like Labour is the lack of any charismatic leader types or solid ideology. The current Conservative government is about as "left wing" as it's ever been so it's hard to see much of a need for the two main alternatives who really aren't that much different from what we have.
The Tories main threat will actually come from within when the right wingers get fed up with all this "lefty" stuff the Johnson government is giving them.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Sept 23, 2021 3:20:20 GMT
It's basically a party of indecision so it attracts ditherers and those of an enfeebled mind. Left-wing people with a bit of money so they don't want to mix with the working class (Labour) but they definitely don't want to be right-wing (Conservative, in their view). Sort of beardy intellectuals who either delusionally think everyone is great in the world so nothing needs to be done or are completely afraid of doing anything. I have read that the Labour Party was founded by trade unionists and socialists. And that it was heavily influenced by Marxist theory.
So is it safe to say the Liberal Democrats are the party of middle class liberals who don't want to mix with the workers?
Also, as an American, I must say the U.S. really doesn't have a real socialist left with any power. The Democratic Party is run by wealthy people who defend their class interests. It sounds as if the Labour Party was intended to be truly Marxist and do away with class divisions. Though by the time of Tony Blair it had become much like the Democratic Party in the U.S., liberal but not socialist.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Sept 23, 2021 3:26:42 GMT
They would probably get the vote of left wingers who find the Labour Party too right wing but still have a chance of winning seats in certain areas. A lot of people who dislike the Conservatives vote tactically between them and Labour as to who has the best chance of unseating the Tory MP. Going into an alliance with the Conservatives in 2010 nearly destroyed them politically as they reneged on left wing policies for a seat at the big table, but are slowly building themselves up again. Their main problem , like Labour is the lack of any charismatic leader types or solid ideology. The current Conservative government is about as "left wing" as it's ever been so it's hard to see much of a need for the two main alternatives who really aren't that much different from what we have. The Tories main threat will actually come from within when the right wingers get fed up with all this "lefty" stuff the Johnson government is giving them. Would it be correct say the Liberal Democrats are middle and upper class while Labour is working class?
And if the Labour Party is founded as a socialist party, how far left wing could the Liberal Democrats possibly be? Or has the Labour Party become bourgeois liberal?
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Post by Flying Monkeys (Flying/Monkeys on Sept 23, 2021 7:24:43 GMT
I have read that the Labour Party was founded by trade unionists and socialists. And that it was heavily influenced by Marxist theory. That is correct, hence the unions still having a huge influence over it. Basically founded as the political arm of the unions, but the leftist unions and more recent centrist-left continually fight internally for control. Yes, spot on. Yes, strong similarities. It was started by the far left but in later decades, some 'normal left' people (more centrists) joined so on average they moved to a more middle left ground. Whoever the leader is determines where the policies of the time land. E.g. Blair was centre left, Corbyn was far left, Starmer is back to centre left. It's a pendulum with Labour (which is continually damaging to them) whereas the Conservatives have been on a slow, steady journey since Thatcher in the 80s towards the centre. Thanks for showing an interest! |
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Post by yggdrasil on Sept 23, 2021 9:54:00 GMT
They would probably get the vote of left wingers who find the Labour Party too right wing but still have a chance of winning seats in certain areas. A lot of people who dislike the Conservatives vote tactically between them and Labour as to who has the best chance of unseating the Tory MP. Going into an alliance with the Conservatives in 2010 nearly destroyed them politically as they reneged on left wing policies for a seat at the big table, but are slowly building themselves up again. Their main problem , like Labour is the lack of any charismatic leader types or solid ideology. The current Conservative government is about as "left wing" as it's ever been so it's hard to see much of a need for the two main alternatives who really aren't that much different from what we have. The Tories main threat will actually come from within when the right wingers get fed up with all this "lefty" stuff the Johnson government is giving them. Would it be correct say the Liberal Democrats are middle and upper class while Labour is working class?
And if the Labour Party is founded as a socialist party, how far left wing could the Liberal Democrats possibly be? Or has the Labour Party become bourgeois liberal?
Traditionally those views are correct but not any more. The Labour Party was a Socialist Party but you have to go back to Harold Wilson in the 1960's/70's for the last time a Labour Government had any Socialist views, After Margaret Thatcher systematically took apart the Socialist "Welfare State" that had been built up in the post war period and replaced it with a deregulated private "greed is good" free for all, Labour were in the political wilderness for a long time and then along came Tony Blair and chums and re branded it as "New Labour" an entity far more along the lines of your Democrats, very business friendly and happy to get on board the privatisation train with the Tories. However, with the move to the right and Conservative's move to the left you have had the situation where Blair and the last two Conservative leaders David Cameron and Boris Johnson are pretty much politically interchangeable. Brexit which Johnson used to grab the leadership of the Tory party was something he utterly didn't believe in (he had always been staunchly pro Europe as London Mayor and in speeches) but could be used to become Prime Minister was his only traditionally right wing policy and the minute he got in power he lurched back to the left as has been recently scene much to traditional Tory horror. The Lib Dems by default have become the most "left" of the 3 main parties but their traditional hunting ground of the middle Class/educated types who feel ashamed of their own wealth and want to put something back saw them lie through their teeth and tear their own manifesto up to get a power share government with the Conservatives in 2010 and largely gave up on them. As for "working Class" I'm not sure what relevance the term has any more, the Tories swept them up in the north of England for the first time ever in the last election although there are signs that it is unlikely they will hold onto them in the future. Brexit and the "Boris factor" called out to them in huge numbers and we live in a time when the poorest in society can be played off cleverly against immigrants as we have seen through history to make them vote against their best interests in the fear of "invasion". I think the old Labour socialists either stay with the Labour party waiting for the wind to change again or, like me, have moved to The Green Party which is the home probably of the most old style left wing policies. I am mostly okay with the Conservative government at the moment oddly, they are as left wing as Labour in the main and most of their far right loonies are being cleverly bribed with meaningless roles on oversight commissions etc. so have very little say in moving them any further right. Boris's wife wields quite a bit of power on what he does and she is environment/animal issues friendly so that's a plus for me. Their are old style Labour policies that would be very helpful but sadly won't happen like the Nationalisation of the Railways and utilities which are in an utter mess at the moment (gas firms collapsing like dominos) as it would be nice for Brits to get the profits rather than the French and German governments who own a lot of the privatised firms. |
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