Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 14:09:27 GMT
This is a primarily British board.
Do you think he was a good Prime Minister? Briefly, in a nutshell, why or why not?
|
|
|
|
Post by Flying Monkeys (Flying/Monkeys on Nov 3, 2021 14:52:20 GMT
Yes.
Fundamental in saving Europe from fascism and nazism.
|
|
|
|
Post by yggdrasil on Nov 4, 2021 12:19:57 GMT
Was an excellent war Prime Minister, the best of all the war leaders, but a pretty terrible domestic one which is why he got thrown out by the electorate after the war. A man of his moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Prince Myshkin on Nov 5, 2021 16:38:58 GMT
Yes. Fundamental in saving Europe from fascism and nazism. But without the U.S. the British would be wearing swastikas now. So what did Churchill do to save Europe?
Honest question, I'm not being an ugly American. |
|
|
|
Post by Flying Monkeys (Flying/Monkeys on Nov 5, 2021 17:15:17 GMT
Yes. Fundamental in saving Europe from fascism and nazism. But without the U.S. the British would be wearing swastikas now.
Patently untrue. That is an ugly American view based on edited history making out you did everything. Britain and its close allies in 1940/41 sent the fighting force of the German army to the eastern front after their defeat in the Battle of Britain, which the US did next to nothing in, and to their ultimate death at the hands of the Soviets. Britain pretty much saved itself and sent them packing. D-Day etc. was a mop-up operation on the western front clearing up an occupation force, not a fighting force. The real fighting after 1941 was in the east. |
|
|
|
Post by Prince Myshkin on Nov 5, 2021 17:57:01 GMT
But without the U.S. the British would be wearing swastikas now.
Patently untrue. That is an ugly American view based on edited history making out you did everything. Britain and its close allies in 1940/41 sent the fighting force of the German army to the eastern front after their defeat in the Battle of Britain, which the US did next to nothing in, and to their ultimate death at the hands of the Soviets. Britain pretty much saved itself and sent them packing. D-Day etc. was a mop-up operation on the western front clearing up an occupation force, not a fighting force. The real fighting after 1941 was in the east. Then why did the U.S. enter the war?
Why have American troops remained in places like Germany to this day?
Could Germany have been defeated without American troops in Europe?
|
|
|
|
Post by Flying Monkeys (Flying/Monkeys on Nov 5, 2021 18:45:24 GMT
Patently untrue. That is an ugly American view based on edited history making out you did everything. Britain and its close allies in 1940/41 sent the fighting force of the German army to the eastern front after their defeat in the Battle of Britain, which the US did next to nothing in, and to their ultimate death at the hands of the Soviets. Britain pretty much saved itself and sent them packing. D-Day etc. was a mop-up operation on the western front clearing up an occupation force, not a fighting force. The real fighting after 1941 was in the east. Then why did the U.S. enter the war? Japan attacked you. For your own gain? How should I know? Yes - they were. By the Soviets. |
|
|
|
Post by mowlick on Nov 5, 2021 18:48:10 GMT
Was an excellent war Prime Minister, the best of all the war leaders, but a pretty terrible domestic one which is why he got thrown out by the electorate after the war. A man of his moment. That is about right. Great man in a crisis, the rest of the time not so much. |
|
|
|
Post by Prince Myshkin on Nov 6, 2021 3:57:47 GMT
Then why did the U.S. enter the war? Japan attacked you. For your own gain? How should I know? Yes - they were. By the Soviets. So Britain and Russia defeated Germany in Europe? Why were there 3 million American soldiers in Europe on V-Day?
My understanding is that it was an allied effort. But you seem to discount the American contribution.
|
|
|
|
Post by yggdrasil on Nov 6, 2021 10:12:53 GMT
Patently untrue. That is an ugly American view based on edited history making out you did everything. Britain and its close allies in 1940/41 sent the fighting force of the German army to the eastern front after their defeat in the Battle of Britain, which the US did next to nothing in, and to their ultimate death at the hands of the Soviets. Britain pretty much saved itself and sent them packing. D-Day etc. was a mop-up operation on the western front clearing up an occupation force, not a fighting force. The real fighting after 1941 was in the east. Then why did the U.S. enter the war?
Why have American troops remained in places like Germany to this day?
Could Germany have been defeated without American troops in Europe?
Germany would have won the war without US involvement but the war would have been over already in Europe without the UK and ten years down the road a war winning Germany would have defeated America. This whole "you'd be talking German without us" mentality is part of the whole "ugly American" arrogance you claim to not be. The US never wanted to be in the war, the pro Germany lobby was huge at the time, as influential as the pro Israel one now, Without being forced into war it was highly unlikely that the US would have got involved before their involvement could have been useful. Really though it was the attempt to use "Blitzkrieg" tactics in Russia with the army outrunning the supply chain and getting bogged down in a winter war that fucked Germany up, they should never have tried to fight on two fronts,in doing so by the time the US entered the war it was unlikely that Germany could have won, the best they could have hoped for and probably achieved was to sue for peace. |
|
|
|
Post by Prince Myshkin on Nov 6, 2021 18:53:05 GMT
Then why did the U.S. enter the war?
Why have American troops remained in places like Germany to this day?
Could Germany have been defeated without American troops in Europe?
Germany would have won the war without US involvement but the war would have been over already in Europe without the UK and ten years down the road a war winning Germany would have defeated America. This whole "you'd be talking German without us" mentality is part of the whole "ugly American" arrogance you claim to not be. The US never wanted to be in the war, the pro Germany lobby was huge at the time, as influential as the pro Israel one now, Without being forced into war it was highly unlikely that the US would have got involved before their involvement could have been useful. Really though it was the attempt to use "Blitzkrieg" tactics in Russia with the army outrunning the supply chain and getting bogged down in a winter war that fucked Germany up, they should never have tried to fight on two fronts,in doing so by the time the US entered the war it was unlikely that Germany could have won, the best they could have hoped for and probably achieved was to sue for peace. I didn't claim to be anything in terms of ugly American arrogance. I said I was honestly asking the question. I wanted the British opinion on the war because obviously I'm American, educated in America, inundated with American media, and had relatives in the military who fought in Europe during WW2.
Even if there had been a stalemate between Britain and Germany, Germany would still have had France without American intervention and most of the continent. They would have had fascist allies in Italy and Spain. So I think it's rather obvious that American intervention was needed to crush the Germans. You could have stopped them at the English Channel but would have lost the rest of Western Europe.
|
|
|
|
Post by mowlick on Nov 6, 2021 19:44:27 GMT
Then why did the U.S. enter the war?
Why have American troops remained in places like Germany to this day?
Could Germany have been defeated without American troops in Europe?
Germany would have won the war without US involvement but the war would have been over already in Europe without the UK and ten years down the road a war winning Germany would have defeated America. This whole "you'd be talking German without us" mentality is part of the whole "ugly American" arrogance you claim to not be. The US never wanted to be in the war, the pro Germany lobby was huge at the time, as influential as the pro Israel one now, Without being forced into war it was highly unlikely that the US would have got involved before their involvement could have been useful. Really though it was the attempt to use "Blitzkrieg" tactics in Russia with the army outrunning the supply chain and getting bogged down in a winter war that fucked Germany up, they should never have tried to fight on two fronts,in doing so by the time the US entered the war it was unlikely that Germany could have won, the best they could have hoped for and probably achieved was to sue for peace. The Americans may not have wanted to be in the war, but when push came to shove on 8 December 1941, they did not hesitate. The vote to declare war on Japan was nigh on 100%, with only one Congress woman voting against. The Germans and Italians rather jumped the gun by declaring war on the US but the Yanks, God bless them, more or less said sod you as well, and this time made their declaration of war against the Axis powers unanimous |
|
|
|
Post by yggdrasil on Nov 7, 2021 12:32:59 GMT
Germany would have won the war without US involvement but the war would have been over already in Europe without the UK and ten years down the road a war winning Germany would have defeated America. This whole "you'd be talking German without us" mentality is part of the whole "ugly American" arrogance you claim to not be. The US never wanted to be in the war, the pro Germany lobby was huge at the time, as influential as the pro Israel one now, Without being forced into war it was highly unlikely that the US would have got involved before their involvement could have been useful. Really though it was the attempt to use "Blitzkrieg" tactics in Russia with the army outrunning the supply chain and getting bogged down in a winter war that fucked Germany up, they should never have tried to fight on two fronts,in doing so by the time the US entered the war it was unlikely that Germany could have won, the best they could have hoped for and probably achieved was to sue for peace. The Americans may not have wanted to be in the war, but when push came to shove on 8 December 1941, they did not hesitate. The vote to declare war on Japan was nigh on 100%, with only one Congress woman voting against. The Germans and Italians rather jumped the gun by declaring war on the US but the Yanks, God bless them, more or less said sod you as well, and this time made their declaration of war against the Axis powers unanimous they did try and stay out of the European war though by only declaring war on Japan. they chose not to declare war against Germany until Germany did it first. Would they have fought Germany without their hand being forced? their President certainly wanted to, but there was very little appetite for a European war in the US and it certainly wouldn't have happened for some time otherwise. These are not criticisms of the US, just historical facts, many would and still argue that the US shouldn't get involved in wars in other parts of the world and that's a perfectly valid view, Churchill had tried unsuccessfully to get the US involved for a long time with no luck. |
|
|
|
Post by Hairynosedwombat on Jan 5, 2022 10:35:17 GMT
Yes. Fundamental in saving Europe from fascism and nazism. Churchill wasn't well liked in Australia because he allowed Singapore to be captured without a fight (probably the fault of the local commander), and refused permission for Australia to withdraw its troops from North Africa. Australia had to send untrained and underequipped local militias to prevent Japan taking over Papua, which would have given Japan a base to strike US forces in Townsville and Guadalcanal. |
|
