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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2022 16:51:32 GMT
Are you suggesting that website speaks for the Church? ![[suspicious]](//storage2.proboards.com/6870873/images/EQjoVeYwBoNmTqbHV0bu.png) So what do you make of Lucifer then? I believe he's real. I am a practicing Catholic. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 10, 2022 6:35:27 GMT
It's the "Church" that's bad though. As Lenny Bruce said "I'm for God, just against Religion". That's why the early Church got rid of Gnosticism and made it a heresy, it didn't require the Church aspect so men couldn't take any power for themselves and act as mouthpieces for the "divine". It's funny when people say this but they never mention all the good they do too. Could there be some bad actors? Sure, just like any other organization But all this same good could have also been done without the Church. And it is not just "bad actors," the institution itself was not established with the greater glory of God in mind. It was a means to consolidate the falling Roman Empire into a single ethos and control the decay. The political empire fell, but the religion took hold. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 10, 2022 6:39:14 GMT
It's funny when people say this but they never mention all the good they do too. Could there be some bad actors? Sure, just like any other organization But if the whole thing is founded on bad intentions (controlling people), why give it any leeway at all? Because the Church speaks for the Almighty himself. To go against God's spokesmen on Earth has often been a death sentence. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 10, 2022 6:44:17 GMT
I would just like to add the Church was instrumentally important in the past by keeping the Muslims at bay ie the Crusades I mean look what happened in Spain Aside from the Battle of Tours, the church tortured and killed Muslims and Jews who would not convert to Catholicism. You think this is what God wanted? Anyway, the Crusades were more about extending Norse piracy and settlement. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 10, 2022 6:47:35 GMT
The Crusades had very little to do with "keeping Muslims at bay". they were about "second sons" enriching themselves and earning Papal indulgencies and the Papacy strengthening and enriching itself. Dan Jones' excellent book "Crusaders" is well worth reading for anyone interested in the whole history of the "Crusades"
linkSo was Christianity was the Big Oil of its day? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 10, 2022 6:57:47 GMT
As I say, the book is extremely comprehensive, it is way too narrow to see it as a means to end any spread of Islam. Jerusalem regularly changed hands through the centuries, there was far more in play than any spread of Islam otherwise all the fighting would have been done in the Iberian peninsula. If anything it was to (re)claim the so called home of Christianity from Islam, but we should also remember that Islam was far more culturally and scientifically advanced than Western thought was at that time, Islam could certainly have advanced our thought had it spread more at that time. Strange how the two swopped places in later centuries. When Islam evolved as a major religion, Christianity in these Near Eastern regions was not very widespread or even orthodox. When the Roman emperor declare the entire Empire for Christianity, this just covered the square milage, not necessarily the people. The church itself had argued for centuries what the true nature of Christ was and a lot of versions, namely Nestorianism was still around. Islam has never denied Jesus was born of a virgin, not sinless, and even may have rose from the dead, but they rejected that he was the flesh and blood of God. For God to live as a human was blasphemy as God would not live in an imperfect vessel whether made of stone or flesh. |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 13, 2022 2:46:06 GMT
It's funny when people say this but they never mention all the good they do too. Could there be some bad actors? Sure, just like any other organization But all this same good could have also been done without the Church. And it is not just "bad actors," the institution itself was not established with the greater glory of God in mind. It was a means to consolidate the falling Roman Empire into a single ethos and control the decay. The political empire fell, but the religion took hold. Something always fills the void. I didnt say it couldnt be done without the Church but in those times what else could unite people from Western countries? And you really think everything else was just rosy, clean and dandy? |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 13, 2022 2:47:50 GMT
I would just like to add the Church was instrumentally important in the past by keeping the Muslims at bay ie the Crusades I mean look what happened in Spain Aside from the Battle of Tours, the church tortured and killed Muslims and Jews who would not convert to Catholicism. You think this is what God wanted? Anyway, the Crusades were more about extending Norse piracy and settlement. Nope but religion back then was more brutal in general. What do you think Muslims did? Today, dont they murder lgbts in some Muslim countries? |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 13, 2022 2:48:19 GMT
So was Christianity was the Big Oil of its day? sigh.. |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 13, 2022 8:20:51 GMT
But if the whole thing is founded on bad intentions (controlling people), why give it any leeway at all? Because the Church speaks for the Almighty himself. To go against God's spokesmen on Earth has often been a death sentence. Only the Catholics with the Pope. The others are interpreters of supposed divine scripture rather than mouthpieces for God. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 13, 2022 10:07:27 GMT
Aside from the Battle of Tours, the church tortured and killed Muslims and Jews who would not convert to Catholicism. You think this is what God wanted? Anyway, the Crusades were more about extending Norse piracy and settlement. Nope but religion back then was more brutal in general. What do you think Muslims did? Today, dont they murder lgbts in some Muslim countries? My point is, it was not the high moral standards of Christianity that stopped the Muslims armies, it was being just as, if not more brutal, than the Muslims themselves. |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 13, 2022 21:11:36 GMT
Nope but religion back then was more brutal in general. What do you think Muslims did? Today, dont they murder lgbts in some Muslim countries? My point is, it was not the high moral standards of Christianity that stopped the Muslims armies, it was being just as, if not more brutal, than the Muslims themselves. And? It was a different time |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 14, 2022 0:44:12 GMT
My point is, it was not the high moral standards of Christianity that stopped the Muslims armies, it was being just as, if not more brutal, than the Muslims themselves. And? It was a different time It was. The men and boys who went there were no different from the men and boys we send to any foreign wars today. The behaved as their commanders ordered. Maybe the foot soldiers died believing it was for the greater glory of God. They had a general absolution so if they died in battle, they were assured to go straight to heaven. That’s not a reason to call what the Crusaders in did in the Middle East, including their trip there, as Christian heroism like in some Hollywood movie. I certainly don’t fault European armies for pushing back the Muslims invaders into Europe, but the Holy Land excursions were nothing but a land grab. Religion was the excuse and motivator for the human cannon fodder. |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 15, 2022 2:48:27 GMT
And? It was a different time It was. The men and boys who went there were no different from the men and boys we send to any foreign wars today. The behaved as their commanders ordered. Maybe the foot soldiers died believing it was for the greater glory of God. They had a general absolution so if they died in battle, they were assured to go straight to heaven. That’s not a reason to call what the Crusaders in did in the Middle East, including their trip there, as Christian heroism like in some Hollywood movie. I certainly don’t fault European armies for pushing back the Muslims invaders into Europe, but the Holy Land excursions were nothing but a land grab. Religion was the excuse and motivator for the human cannon fodder. Youre certainly entitled to your opinion but thats not the way I see it. Could it have been exploited in some ways? Sure. Anything can be from simple work conditions in an office to deals between countries. Everyone wants their piece of the pie unfortunately. Although if you want to criticize something, have at it. Although be honest and criticize opposing factions in the same manner too |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 15, 2022 23:17:07 GMT
It was. The men and boys who went there were no different from the men and boys we send to any foreign wars today. The behaved as their commanders ordered. Maybe the foot soldiers died believing it was for the greater glory of God. They had a general absolution so if they died in battle, they were assured to go straight to heaven. That’s not a reason to call what the Crusaders in did in the Middle East, including their trip there, as Christian heroism like in some Hollywood movie. I certainly don’t fault European armies for pushing back the Muslims invaders into Europe, but the Holy Land excursions were nothing but a land grab. Religion was the excuse and motivator for the human cannon fodder. Youre certainly entitled to your opinion but thats not the way I see it. Could it have been exploited in some ways? Sure. Anything can be from simple work conditions in an office to deals between countries. Everyone wants their piece of the pie unfortunately. Although if you want to criticize something, have at it. Although be honest and criticize opposing factions in the same manner too Objectively speaking, there is nothing to blame on folks living 800 years ago. They were a product of their times. But we do not want to have the same mindset from 800 years ago and apply medieval solutions to our 21 century problems. As it is the Muslims want to convert the planet to Allah and the Christians want to for God and the rest of us are stuck between you two over warring over something that is non-provable which is which God is the right one. And this war has not let up in over a thousand years. Naturally the world is sick of fanaticism. |
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