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Post by Flying Monkeys on Sept 27, 2022 11:37:30 GMT
Their faith is that god does not exist. As they have no knowledge one way or the other, non-existence is also a belief. In my view, both theists and atheists are barking up wrong trees, both based on belief, and agnosticism is the only sensible position. Yes, but that's like saying all negatives are equal, you have to have faith that we aren't all controlled by a giant bunny rabbit in a secret underground lair, but say that the bunny rabbit is equal to their God and wait for them to kick up a fuss. Going with logic and science that there is no deity, is a "belief" on much firmer ground than the belief that a God exists. Most of the things that "God" was created to thank and the Devil was created to blame have since been proven to just be natural phenomena, we understand weather patterns and no longer need to than God for the a good harvest or blame demonic forces for a bad one. Pretty much all the reasons for God to exist in the human mind have now gone, all that remains is a life after death "belief" and you don't really require God for that. "you have to have faith that we aren't all controlled by a giant bunny rabbit in a secret underground lair," Why? Doesn't seem to make much difference so who cares? "Going with logic and science that there is no deity, is a "belief" on much firmer ground than the belief that a God exists." Depends on your definition of god. If you mean incredibly powerful being, I'd say the probability is very high of such an existence. If you mean as defined in the bible (omnipresent; omnipotent) I'd say low probability.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 12:16:42 GMT
Many Athiest talk as if they cannot have faith in anything that cannot be proven. That is not faith. That is knowledge. Two different things. That is why believers have faith God exist. Because nobody has proof or knowledge of his existence. They have to believe. Because they don't know. Their faith is that god does not exist. As they have no knowledge one way or the other, non-existence is also a belief. In my view, both theists and atheists are barking up wrong trees, both based on belief, and agnosticism is the only sensible position. That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 12:17:50 GMT
Their faith is that god does not exist. As they have no knowledge one way or the other, non-existence is also a belief. In my view, both theists and atheists are barking up wrong trees, both based on belief, and agnosticism is the only sensible position. Yes, but that's like saying all negatives are equal, you have to have faith that we aren't all controlled by a giant bunny rabbit in a secret underground lair, but say that the bunny rabbit is equal to their God and wait for them to kick up a fuss. Going with logic and science that there is no deity, is a "belief" on much firmer ground than the belief that a God exists. Most of the things that "God" was created to thank and the Devil was created to blame have since been proven to just be natural phenomena, we understand weather patterns and no longer need to than God for the a good harvest or blame demonic forces for a bad one. Pretty much all the reasons for God to exist in the human mind have now gone, all that remains is a life after death "belief" and you don't really require God for that. That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything.
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Sept 27, 2022 12:29:19 GMT
Their faith is that god does not exist. As they have no knowledge one way or the other, non-existence is also a belief. In my view, both theists and atheists are barking up wrong trees, both based on belief, and agnosticism is the only sensible position. That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything. Okay, maybe not a faith but non-existence of god is still a belief. Belief stinks.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 12:45:49 GMT
That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything. Okay, maybe not a faith but non-existence of god is still a belief. Belief stinks. 1) This is the same as politics. The extremists and radicals get all the attention. And give a bad name to the moderates with the same position. Most believers are perfectly happy with Athiests and Agnostics choosing not to believe. But they understandably don't like the radicals and extremists Athiests and Agnostics judging and condemning them as believers. I have been an Atheist and Agnostic in my life. I would never judge or condemn an Atheist or Agnostic for doing what I have done. 2) It takes more intellect to know the difference between knowledge and faith. And to have both. Than having no ability to believe in anything. It's like a scientist who can also write, produce and perform art. Science (knowledge seeking tangible proof) is different than art requiring imagination, make believe and creativity. Sheldon on Big Bang Theory was an exaggeration of a super smart scientist who had no imagination, creativity or the ability to accept make believe. Resultingly he was like an idiot savant who was incredibly talented and skilled in certain things. And a complete idiot in others. Those are two different kinds of mental abilities.
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Post by stammerhead on Sept 27, 2022 12:57:19 GMT
Yes, but that's like saying all negatives are equal, you have to have faith that we aren't all controlled by a giant bunny rabbit in a secret underground lair, but say that the bunny rabbit is equal to their God and wait for them to kick up a fuss. Going with logic and science that there is no deity, is a "belief" on much firmer ground than the belief that a God exists. Most of the things that "God" was created to thank and the Devil was created to blame have since been proven to just be natural phenomena, we understand weather patterns and no longer need to than God for the a good harvest or blame demonic forces for a bad one. Pretty much all the reasons for God to exist in the human mind have now gone, all that remains is a life after death "belief" and you don't really require God for that. That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything. We all believe in something even if it’s just the belief that we won’t encounter this sort of thing on the way to the shops… 
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 13:03:00 GMT
That isn't faith. That is just a refusal to believe in anything. We all believe in something even if it’s just the belief that we won’t encounter this sort of thing on the way to the shops… 
Of course. But the degree of faith is the difference. That animation is based on real life experience and probability. One has never heard of or seen a hand with a knife sticking out of the street. So, once again, it's really just choosing NOT TO BELIEVE in anything that has no tangible proof. That is different than choosing TO BELIEVE in something which there is no tangible proof. There is no tangible proof of God.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 13:27:07 GMT
I agree with that. As far as I know, only the religious right wants to do that. I don't. I believe in separation of church and state. If you blow “God” out to an abstraction, it can be just about anything including the quantum wu, so to be an atheist against any possibilities of “?’s” existence is kinda foolish mostly because it’s a waste of time. However, atheism deals with the particular revelatory God of Abrahamic religions who has occupied a place of reality in our culture. It’s impossible to prove he is real, but quite easy to show how the God in the Scriptures evolved from a pantheon of Canaanite tribal deities. That doesn't prove God doesn't exist. To the contrary, it shows; 1) an attempt to understand that which there is no understanding. And 2) a common sensation of the existence of a greater power. Many people understand there is no proof, and even no logic in believing in God. But still they cannot deny the feeling that a greater power may still exist.
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Post by PaulsLaugh Thought Mountie on Sept 27, 2022 14:07:06 GMT
If you blow “God” out to an abstraction, it can be just about anything including the quantum wu, so to be an atheist against any possibilities of “?’s” existence is kinda foolish mostly because it’s a waste of time. However, atheism deals with the particular revelatory God of Abrahamic religions who has occupied a place of reality in our culture. It’s impossible to prove he is real, but quite easy to show how the God in the Scriptures evolved from a pantheon of Canaanite tribal deities. That doesn't prove God doesn't exist. To the contrary, it shows; 1) an attempt to understand that which there is no understanding. And 2) a common sensation of the existence of a greater power. Many people understand there is no proof, and even no logic in believing in God. But still they cannot deny the feeling that a greater power may still exist.Atheist don’t deny this feeling, but it can be a feeling about anything. Atheism is in opposition to theism, the study of God, or Yahweh, as an objective reality who exists just as Tom Hanks exists. Not to so-called spirituality which can be a faith in anything. There is no solid evidence or facts inside the study of God, or theism, to demonstratively prove Yahweh’s, who once stop the rotation of the Earth to finish a battle, existence. And this would not be a problem, but Christianity has since Rome made it their state religion insisted everyone must accept Yahweh in Bible as their God too and all must obey those who men on earth protect Yahweh’s rights over Mankind. Jews who believe the same thing about God stopping the sun, don’t push their beliefs onto people. So atheism is properly the denunciation of theism as a legitimate field of study the way the church has handled it. Christianity is a religion about salvation from sin, it’s predicated on the notion no human being will not be punished in an afterlife for being born into sin. The reason Jesus became God was to save humankind from a horrible, forever fate he imposed on humans to begin with…according theism. And the only way to get salvation is through the guys who control the theism. Christianity is a lot of other things beyond its central mission, but the control factor seems to override all of it. The benefits of formal, theological religion, rather than new age spirituality, tend to be far less than the detriments for society at large. It might be great for the individual who was lead to believe he or she would roast in fire for infinity of time and has now been saved from this constant fear of dying. My point is atheists generally are not ignorant about religion, usually it’s the other way around. I know for a fact Yahweh does not exist because I know enough about where, when, and how the belief Yahweh is the only God in existence and he created the entire universe, therefore he owns belief, got started. It has a traceable history that can be found both inside and outside the study of the Bible. I don’t know if there is a “god” in that It created the Big Bang or if Big Bang created It. There might not have been a Big Bang, we just don’t know enough…but it’s the most likely story as of right now. If there is a metaphysical, aka alternative dimension or multiverse, to our reality, then it is a part of nature and should be observable. Maybe we don’t have the right equipment yet. There are some interesting things going on in physics, so who knows? Ever heard of fundamental fysiks? They self-consciously opened up space again ... for the kind of spirited philosophical engagement with fundamental physics that the Cold War decades had dampened. More than most of their generation, they sought to recapture the big-picture search for meaning that had driven their heroes—Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, and Schrödinger—and to smuggle that mode of doing physics back into their daily routine.
Second, members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group latched onto a topic, known as "Bell's theorem," and rescued it from a decade of unrelenting obscurity. The theorem ... stipulated that quantum objects that had once interacted would retain some strange link or connection, even after they had moved arbitrarily far apart from each other. ... Working in various genres and media, the Fundamental Fysiks Group grappled with Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement. ... In the process, they forced a few of their physicist peers to pay attention to the topic ... From these battles, quantum information science was born.The hippie physicists' concerted push on Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement instigated major breakthroughs ... The most important became known as the "no-cloning theorem," a new insight into quantum theory that emerged from spirited efforts to wrestle with hypothetical machines dreamed up by members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group. Wikipedia “God” in this case has nothing to do with religion.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 14:44:00 GMT
That doesn't prove God doesn't exist. To the contrary, it shows; 1) an attempt to understand that which there is no understanding. And 2) a common sensation of the existence of a greater power. Many people understand there is no proof, and even no logic in believing in God. But still they cannot deny the feeling that a greater power may still exist.Atheist don’t deny this feeling, but it can be a feeling about anything. Atheism is in opposition to theism, the study of God, or Yahweh, as an objective reality who exists just as Tom Hanks exists. Not to so-called spirituality which can be a faith in anything. There is no solid evidence or facts inside the study of God, or theism, to demonstratively prove Yahweh’s, who once stop the rotation of the Earth to finish a battle, existence. And this would not be a problem, but Christianity has since Rome made it their state religion insisted everyone must accept Yahweh in Bible as their God too and all must obey those who men on earth protect Yahweh’s rights over Mankind. Jews who believe the same thing about God stopping the sun, don’t push their beliefs onto people. So atheism is properly the denunciation of theism as a legitimate field of study the way the church has handled it. Christianity is a religion about salvation from sin, it’s predicated on the notion no human being will not be punished in an afterlife for being born into sin. The reason Jesus became God was to save humankind from a horrible, forever fate he imposed on humans to begin with…according theism. And the only way to get salvation is through the guys who control the theism. Christianity is a lot of other things beyond its central mission, but the control factor seems to override all of it. The benefits of formal, theological religion, rather than new age spirituality, tend to be far less than the detriments for society at large. It might be great for the individual who was lead to believe he or she would roast in fire for infinity of time and has now been saved from this constant fear of dying. My point is atheists generally are not ignorant about religion, usually it’s the other way around. I know for a fact Yahweh does not exist because I know enough about where, when, and how the belief Yahweh is the only God in existence and he created the entire universe, therefore he owns belief, got started. It has a traceable history that can be found both inside and outside the study of the Bible. I don’t know if there is a “god” in that It created the Big Bang or if Big Bang created It. There might not have been a Big Bang, we just don’t know enough…but it’s the most likely story as of right now. If there is a metaphysical, aka alternative dimension or multiverse, to our reality, then it is a part of nature and should be observable. Maybe we don’t have the right equipment yet. There are some interesting things going on in physics, so who knows? Ever heard of fundamental fysiks? They self-consciously opened up space again ... for the kind of spirited philosophical engagement with fundamental physics that the Cold War decades had dampened. More than most of their generation, they sought to recapture the big-picture search for meaning that had driven their heroes—Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, and Schrödinger—and to smuggle that mode of doing physics back into their daily routine.
Second, members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group latched onto a topic, known as "Bell's theorem," and rescued it from a decade of unrelenting obscurity. The theorem ... stipulated that quantum objects that had once interacted would retain some strange link or connection, even after they had moved arbitrarily far apart from each other. ... Working in various genres and media, the Fundamental Fysiks Group grappled with Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement. ... In the process, they forced a few of their physicist peers to pay attention to the topic ... From these battles, quantum information science was born.The hippie physicists' concerted push on Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement instigated major breakthroughs ... The most important became known as the "no-cloning theorem," a new insight into quantum theory that emerged from spirited efforts to wrestle with hypothetical machines dreamed up by members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group. Wikipedia “God” in this case has nothing to do with religion. This is often a problem non believers have with believers. And resultingly, vice-versa. There is a difference between religion, spirituality and organized religion. Understandably organized religion has done things as a beaurocratic human organization that people don't agree with. And history has proven wrong. But that is different than religion, spirituality and personal beliefs. Just because organized religious organizations have done bad things, doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Or every believer is stupid, silly, and ridiculous.
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Post by stammerhead on Sept 27, 2022 21:29:33 GMT
We all believe in something even if it’s just the belief that we won’t encounter this sort of thing on the way to the shops… 
Of course. But the degree of faith is the difference. That animation is based on real life experience and probability. One has never heard of or seen a hand with a knife sticking out of the street. So, once again, it's really just choosing NOT TO BELIEVE in anything that has no tangible proof. That is different than choosing TO BELIEVE in something which there is no tangible proof. There is no tangible proof of God. Fair enough but I still don’t see how that proves stupidity either way. Some people can invent a reality without believing in it while others can believe in a reality they didn’t invent. Personally I believe people just like insulting each other.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 27, 2022 21:56:34 GMT
Of course. But the degree of faith is the difference. That animation is based on real life experience and probability. One has never heard of or seen a hand with a knife sticking out of the street. So, once again, it's really just choosing NOT TO BELIEVE in anything that has no tangible proof. That is different than choosing TO BELIEVE in something which there is no tangible proof. There is no tangible proof of God. Fair enough but I still don’t see how that proves stupidity either way. Some people can invent a reality without believing in it while others can believe in a reality they didn’t invent. Personally I believe people just like insulting each other. It takes more intellect to know the difference between knowledge and faith. And to have both. Than having no ability to believe in anything. It's like a scientist who can also write, produce and perform art. Science (knowledge seeking tangible proof) is different than art requiring imagination, make believe and creativity. Sheldon on Big Bang Theory was an exaggeration of a super smart scientist who had no imagination, creativity or the ability to accept make believe. Resultingly he was like an idiot savant who was incredibly talented and skilled in certain things. And a complete idiot in others. Those are two different kinds of mental abilities.
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Post by PaulsLaugh Thought Mountie on Sept 27, 2022 23:15:07 GMT
Atheist don’t deny this feeling, but it can be a feeling about anything. Atheism is in opposition to theism, the study of God, or Yahweh, as an objective reality who exists just as Tom Hanks exists. Not to so-called spirituality which can be a faith in anything. There is no solid evidence or facts inside the study of God, or theism, to demonstratively prove Yahweh’s, who once stop the rotation of the Earth to finish a battle, existence. And this would not be a problem, but Christianity has since Rome made it their state religion insisted everyone must accept Yahweh in Bible as their God too and all must obey those who men on earth protect Yahweh’s rights over Mankind. Jews who believe the same thing about God stopping the sun, don’t push their beliefs onto people. So atheism is properly the denunciation of theism as a legitimate field of study the way the church has handled it. Christianity is a religion about salvation from sin, it’s predicated on the notion no human being will not be punished in an afterlife for being born into sin. The reason Jesus became God was to save humankind from a horrible, forever fate he imposed on humans to begin with…according theism. And the only way to get salvation is through the guys who control the theism. Christianity is a lot of other things beyond its central mission, but the control factor seems to override all of it. The benefits of formal, theological religion, rather than new age spirituality, tend to be far less than the detriments for society at large. It might be great for the individual who was lead to believe he or she would roast in fire for infinity of time and has now been saved from this constant fear of dying. My point is atheists generally are not ignorant about religion, usually it’s the other way around. I know for a fact Yahweh does not exist because I know enough about where, when, and how the belief Yahweh is the only God in existence and he created the entire universe, therefore he owns belief, got started. It has a traceable history that can be found both inside and outside the study of the Bible. I don’t know if there is a “god” in that It created the Big Bang or if Big Bang created It. There might not have been a Big Bang, we just don’t know enough…but it’s the most likely story as of right now. If there is a metaphysical, aka alternative dimension or multiverse, to our reality, then it is a part of nature and should be observable. Maybe we don’t have the right equipment yet. There are some interesting things going on in physics, so who knows? Ever heard of fundamental fysiks? They self-consciously opened up space again ... for the kind of spirited philosophical engagement with fundamental physics that the Cold War decades had dampened. More than most of their generation, they sought to recapture the big-picture search for meaning that had driven their heroes—Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, and Schrödinger—and to smuggle that mode of doing physics back into their daily routine.
Second, members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group latched onto a topic, known as "Bell's theorem," and rescued it from a decade of unrelenting obscurity. The theorem ... stipulated that quantum objects that had once interacted would retain some strange link or connection, even after they had moved arbitrarily far apart from each other. ... Working in various genres and media, the Fundamental Fysiks Group grappled with Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement. ... In the process, they forced a few of their physicist peers to pay attention to the topic ... From these battles, quantum information science was born.The hippie physicists' concerted push on Bell's theorem and quantum entanglement instigated major breakthroughs ... The most important became known as the "no-cloning theorem," a new insight into quantum theory that emerged from spirited efforts to wrestle with hypothetical machines dreamed up by members of the Fundamental Fysiks Group. Wikipedia “God” in this case has nothing to do with religion. This is often a problem non believers have with believers. And resultingly, vice-versa. There is a difference between religion, spirituality and organized religion. Understandably organized religion has done things as a beaurocratic human organization that people don't agree with. And history has proven wrong. But that is different than religion, spirituality and personal beliefs. Just because organized religious organizations have done bad things, doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Or every believer is stupid, silly, and ridiculous. Religion, even when it’s practiced with kindness and mercy, can cut a person off to reality. If a person believes that there is no way God will destroy the Earth again with a Great Flood, then they might see global warming as a Satanic hoax. Certainly no religion proves God existence, but try to tell the faithful that.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 0:15:25 GMT
This is often a problem non believers have with believers. And resultingly, vice-versa. There is a difference between religion, spirituality and organized religion. Understandably organized religion has done things as a beaurocratic human organization that people don't agree with. And history has proven wrong. But that is different than religion, spirituality and personal beliefs. Just because organized religious organizations have done bad things, doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Or every believer is stupid, silly, and ridiculous. Religion, even when it’s practiced with kindness and mercy, can cut a person off to reality. If a person believes that there is no way God will destroy the Earth again with a Great Flood, then they might see global warming as a Satanic hoax. Certainly no religion proves God existence, but try to tell the faithful that. That is not the religion's fault. I'm religious. But I'm educated. If somebody is stupid, it is better they have religion than not. That is not religion. That is the misuse of religion. That is like blaming the gun when somebody shoots somebody. Or the car when a bad driver gets in an accident.
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Post by PaulsLaugh Thought Mountie on Sept 28, 2022 15:12:00 GMT
Religion, even when it’s practiced with kindness and mercy, can cut a person off to reality. If a person believes that there is no way God will destroy the Earth again with a Great Flood, then they might see global warming as a Satanic hoax. Certainly no religion proves God existence, but try to tell the faithful that. That is not the religion's fault. I'm religious. But I'm educated. If somebody is stupid, it is better they have religion than not. That is not religion. That is the misuse of religion. That is like blaming the gun when somebody shoots somebody. Or the car when a bad driver gets in an accident. You are not hidebound to doctrine either. I will guess that you do not believe in any literal way the creation narrative(s) in the Bible that is the single foundation of the three major world religions that have shaped our global society profoundly in the last two thousand years and currently covers half of the world’s religious.
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