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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 0:35:51 GMT
The central message in Christianity is salvation, not morality, that’s a consequence of salvation. Living a 100% moral life will not save a person from Hell. This is why most orthodox Christians ignore Jesus’ morality teachings. That is wrong. Christianity teaches the only way to get to Heaven is to praise God through prayer and action. The actions are moral and ethical behavior. (For example, one thing we were taught is, "You love God by loving others".) Only because of Jesus', who is also God, sacrifice on the cross which redeems humans from the eternal damnation because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. And you have to believe in him to get the benefits of heaven. You can sing and praise all you want, but the person who sins and sins away, but dies with a death bed conversion, goes to the same heaven as Mother Teresa. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 0:59:16 GMT
That is wrong. Christianity teaches the only way to get to Heaven is to praise God through prayer and action. The actions are moral and ethical behavior. (For example, one thing we were taught is, "You love God by loving others".) Only because of Jesus', who is also God, sacrifice on the cross which redeems humans from the eternal damnation because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. And you have to believe in him to get the benefits of heaven. You can sing and praise all you want, but the person who sins and sins away, but dies with a death bed conversion, goes to the same heaven as Mother Teresa. Nobody educated believes that. That is stupid. There are consequences for doing bad things and being a bad person. Whether you believe in God or not. You are not praising God through action if you do bad things. Or are a bad person. That is a hypocrite. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 1:46:57 GMT
Only because of Jesus', who is also God, sacrifice on the cross which redeems humans from the eternal damnation because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. And you have to believe in him to get the benefits of heaven. You can sing and praise all you want, but the person who sins and sins away, but dies with a death bed conversion, goes to the same heaven as Mother Teresa. There are consequences for doing bad things and being a bad person. Whether you believe in God or not. You are not praising God through action if you do bad things. Or are a bad person. That is a hypocrite. I'm not advocating for it, just stating orthodox Christian doctrine. It is drawn directly from the Gospels. According to Christian dogma, we all fall short of the grace of God and salvation is predicated on the fact that human beings do not do good things. If we did, we wouldn't need Jesus to save us. I get that Christian spirituality or quietism, modeling oneself on the life of Jesus or a saint is a worthy thing to peruse as far as building one's moral character and this is what the good Christian does to preach the Gospel indeed, but it is not salvation which can only come from God. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 2:16:39 GMT
Nobody educated believes that. That is stupid.There are consequences for doing bad things and being a bad person. Whether you believe in God or not. You are not praising God through action if you do bad things. Or are a bad person. That is a hypocrite. I'm not advocating for it, just stating orthodox Christian doctrine. It is drawn directly from the Gospels. According to Christian dogma, we all fall short of the grace of God and salvation is predicated on the fact that human beings do not do good things. If we did, we wouldn't need Jesus to save us. I get that Christian spirituality or quietism, modeling oneself on the life of Jesus or a saint is a worthy thing to peruse as far as building one's moral character and this is what the good Christian does to preach the Gospel indeed, but it is not salvation which can only come from God. The Gospels were written by men 2,000 years ago. What makes you think they knew everything? And reportedly, all the Gospels don't agree. So, all you really have are different opinions from different fallable human beings who --- like all human beings --- don't know everything. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 7:43:11 GMT
I'm not advocating for it, just stating orthodox Christian doctrine. It is drawn directly from the Gospels. According to Christian dogma, we all fall short of the grace of God and salvation is predicated on the fact that human beings do not do good things. If we did, we wouldn't need Jesus to save us. I get that Christian spirituality or quietism, modeling oneself on the life of Jesus or a saint is a worthy thing to peruse as far as building one's moral character and this is what the good Christian does to preach the Gospel indeed, but it is not salvation which can only come from God. The Gospels were written by men 2,000 years ago. What makes you think they knew everything? And reportedly, all the Gospels don't agree. So, all you really have are different opinions from different fallable human beings who --- like all human beings --- don't know everything. It's not important what they knew, according to mainstream Christian theology, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired by God as the Word, aka Jesus, to not write any error. However, in fundamentalist Christianity, God himself wrote the Bible. Men only recorded the words. And you can't rationalize religion, you simply have the faith of a child that it is correct. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 14:04:22 GMT
The Gospels were written by men 2,000 years ago. What makes you think they knew everything? And reportedly, all the Gospels don't agree. So, all you really have are different opinions from different fallable human beings who --- like all human beings --- don't know everything. It's not important what they knew, according to mainstream Christian theology, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired by God as the Word, aka Jesus, to not write any error. However, in fundamentalist Christianity, God himself wrote the Bible. Men only recorded the words. And you can't rationalize religion, you simply have the faith of a child that it is correct. REPLY #1 Baloney. Educated and intelligent believers know God didn't write the Bible. Imperfect fallible human beings did. Imperfect fallible human beings who were not as smart as people today. The Bible is no different than any other book written 2,000 years ago. It's good. But it ain't perfect. And as always, one must consider the source. Certainly, what you say is what some preachers and churches preach. And stupid idiots are going to take that message literally. But as I said before, those people are stupid. And if they are that stupid, they are better off with religion, than without. Fear of God keeps them on the straight and narrow until they are able to think more intelligently about religion. And how the Bible applies to real life today. If God exist as the Bible says, God knows everything. Including the future. Why is there no mention of cellphones, rocket ships, outer space, television, the Internet, air conditioning, North America, or gender reassignment surgery in the Bible? I believe God exist. But He certainly didn't write the Bible. Intelligent people think for themselves. They don't obey blindly everything a book, a church or a preacher tells them. And as with radical extremism, and the Trumptards --- ignorant people are more likely to be manipulated. No different with religion. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 15:12:09 GMT
The Gospels were written by men 2,000 years ago. What makes you think they knew everything? And reportedly, all the Gospels don't agree. So, all you really have are different opinions from different fallable human beings who --- like all human beings --- don't know everything. It's not important what they knew, according to mainstream Christian theology, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired by God as the Word, aka Jesus, to not write any error. However, in fundamentalist Christianity, God himself wrote the Bible. Men only recorded the words. And you can't rationalize religion, you simply have the faith of a child that it is correct. REPLY #2 I know most fundamentalist Christians take the Bible literally. But most Christians are not fundamentalist. Politically they are and always have been a force to deal with. But they ain't numerous enough to take over. Unless the rest of the population allows them to take over. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 15:45:03 GMT
The Gospels were written by men 2,000 years ago. What makes you think they knew everything? And reportedly, all the Gospels don't agree. So, all you really have are different opinions from different fallable human beings who --- like all human beings --- don't know everything. It's not important what they knew, according to mainstream Christian theology, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired by God as the Word, aka Jesus, to not write any error. However, in fundamentalist Christianity, God himself wrote the Bible. Men only recorded the words. And you can't rationalize religion, you simply have the faith of a child that it is correct. REPLY #3 . . . And Christian Fundamentalism is not the fault of the religion. It's the misuse of religion. Don't blame religion. Blame the morons who misuse it. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Sept 29, 2022 16:02:18 GMT
I expect atheists to have a concise argument against each God individually. My argument for claims of atheism has always been to deny a God, whichever one it may be, one has to have the notion of "some" God to begin with in order to refute it. The process of thought has to begin with a notion of God, any notion, whichever way one chooses to look at it.
I don't consider myself a believer in religious notion of God, but to use the God term loosely, I see it as representing all that is contained within everything and nothing. There is no detachment or fragmentation away from God and it is all wholeness and one.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 16:14:00 GMT
I expect atheists to have a concise argument against each God individually. My argument for claims of atheism has always been to deny a God, whichever one it may be, one has to have the notion of "some" God to begin with in order to refute it. The process of thought has to begin with a notion of God, any notion, whichever way one chooses to look at it.
I don't consider myself a believer in religious notion of God, but to use the God term loosely, I see it as representing all that is contained within everything and nothing. There is no detachment or fragmentation away from God and it is all wholeness and one.
I don't agree. Many Athiests grow up in homes where religion is not present. And then they feel victimized by cohorts of a religion judging them and wanting to deny them rights based on their lack of religion. They understandably respond with condemnation of believers and religion. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Sept 29, 2022 16:17:06 GMT
I don't agree. Many Athiests grow up in homes where religion is not present. And then they feel victimized by cohorts of a religion judging them and wanting to deny them rights based on their lack of religion. They understandably respond with condemnation of believers and religion. Why does religion even have to be present though? Is that what you are implying, just to be clear on your stance? I haven't read through all the posts. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Sept 29, 2022 16:23:32 GMT
Don't blame religion. Blame the morons who misuse it.
Then without religion, or religious belief, there would be nothing to misuse.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 17:07:36 GMT
I don't agree. Many Athiests grow up in homes where religion is not present. And then they feel victimized by cohorts of a religion judging them and wanting to deny them rights based on their lack of religion. They understandably respond with condemnation of believers and religion. Why does religion even have to be present though? Is that what you are implying, just to be clear on your stance? I haven't read through all the posts. Because when used properly, religion is good. It teaches morality, ethics and spirituality. When users improperly, it teaches fanaticism. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 17:08:42 GMT
Don't blame religion. Blame the morons who misuse it. Then without religion, or religious belief, there would be nothing to misuse.
No. Many religious people have no education. Religion, when used properly, provides education, morals, ethics and spirituality. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 17:16:58 GMT
It's not important what they knew, according to mainstream Christian theology, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired by God as the Word, aka Jesus, to not write any error. However, in fundamentalist Christianity, God himself wrote the Bible. Men only recorded the words. And you can't rationalize religion, you simply have the faith of a child that it is correct. REPLY #1 Baloney. Educated and intelligent believers know God didn't write the Bible. Imperfect fallible human beings did. Imperfect fallible human beings who were not as smart as people today. The Bible is no different than any other book written 2,000 years ago. It's good. But it ain't perfect. And as always, one must consider the source. Certainly, what you say is what some preachers and churches preach. And stupid idiots are going to take that message literally. But as I said before, those people are stupid. And if they are that stupid, they are better off with religion, than without. Fear of God keeps them on the straight and narrow until they are able to think more intelligently about religion. And how the Bible applies to real life today. If God exist as the Bible says, God knows everything. Including the future. Why is there no mention of cellphones, rocket ships, outer space, television, the Internet, air conditioning, North America, or gender reassignment surgery in the Bible? I believe God exist. But He certainly didn't write the Bible. Intelligent people think for themselves. They don't obey blindly everything a book, a church or a preacher tells them. And as with radical extremism, and the Trumptards --- ignorant people are more likely to be manipulated. No different with religion. But you are not supposed to know, it’s a matter of faith. ![[grin]](http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/CBubFSUbXfyoLMZUjeBb.gif) And back to square one. It’s pointless to ask for salvation if you don’t think salvation is an actual thing. You’re rather like many Jews who are functionally agnostic, but keep the tradition alive if not the faith. The crux is, and regardless if he was born to a virgin, you either believe Jesus got up off the slab on Easter Sunday morning after three days dead or he didn’t. It can’t be both. If you believe he can come back to life and now sits at the right hand the Father, then it’s possible He, as maker of Heaven and Earth, did it only 6,000 years ago. I like Jesus myself and his mission love. I enjoy reading the Bible. There is ancient wisdom inside it. I don’t believe in any part of Jesus’ divinity. I believe it’s also possible he is more than one person or maybe never existed at all. The Gospels are still great works. It’s also possible Paul of Tarsus pretty made most of him up when he become a true believer after his incident on the road to Damascus. I also stuck around the church longer than I should after I reconciled my lingering incredulity. The tradition and spirituality can be rich and beautiful, but I can longer identify with. It is a Near Eastern religion that I admire cultural but it’s not for me. None of “my peeps” came from there. As I said above, I’m not a hardcore materialist, but after a thorough historical and rational examination, Christianity made me a true atheist, so I can thank Christianity for that completed journey. Spirituality, I’m a happy person. Now I can be totally open to new ideas on a multiverse I can identify with. Have you noticed how the bulk of the creed…which is Christianity in a nutshell…is heavy on the Jesus part. This is because it took the bishops generations to define who and what Jesus was. Years were spent on each carefully chosen word. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. |
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