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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 17:32:32 GMT
REPLY #1 Baloney. Educated and intelligent believers know God didn't write the Bible. Imperfect fallible human beings did. Imperfect fallible human beings who were not as smart as people today. The Bible is no different than any other book written 2,000 years ago. It's good. But it ain't perfect. And as always, one must consider the source. Certainly, what you say is what some preachers and churches preach. And stupid idiots are going to take that message literally. But as I said before, those people are stupid. And if they are that stupid, they are better off with religion, than without. Fear of God keeps them on the straight and narrow until they are able to think more intelligently about religion. And how the Bible applies to real life today. If God exist as the Bible says, God knows everything. Including the future. Why is there no mention of cellphones, rocket ships, outer space, television, the Internet, air conditioning, North America, or gender reassignment surgery in the Bible? I believe God exist. But He certainly didn't write the Bible. Intelligent people think for themselves. They don't obey blindly everything a book, a church or a preacher tells them. And as with radical extremism, and the Trumptards --- ignorant people are more likely to be manipulated. No different with religion. But you are not supposed to know, it’s a matter of faith. [img alt=" ![[grin]](http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/CBubFSUbXfyoLMZUjeBb.gif) " class="smile" src="http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/CBubFSUbXfyoLMZUjeBb.gif" style="max-width:100%;"] And back to square one. It’s pointless to ask for salvation if you don’t think salvation is an actual thing. You’re rather like many Jews who are functionally agnostic, but keep the tradition alive if not the faith. The crux is, and regardless if he was born to a virgin, you either believe Jesus got up off the slab on Easter Sunday morning after three days dead or he didn’t. It can’t be both. If you believe he can come back to life and now sits at the right hand the Father, then it’s possible He, as maker of Heaven and Earth, did it only 6,000 years ago. I like Jesus myself and his mission love. I enjoy reading the Bible. There is ancient wisdom inside it. I don’t believe in any part of Jesus’ divinity. I believe it’s also possible he is more than one person or maybe never existed at all. The Gospels are still great works. It’s also possible Paul of Tarsus pretty made most of him up when he become a true believer after his incident on the road to Damascus. I also stuck around the church longer than I should after I reconciled my lingering incredulity. The tradition and spirituality can be rich and beautiful, but I can longer identify with. It is a Near Eastern religion that I admire cultural but it’s not for me. None of “my peeps” came from there. As I said above, I’m not a hardcore materialist, but after a thorough historical and rational examination, Christianity made me a true atheist, so I can thank Christianity for that completed journey. Spirituality, I’m a happy person. Now I can be totally open to new ideas on a multiverse I can identify with. Have you noticed how the bulk of the creed…which is Christianity in a nutshell…is heavy on the Jesus part. This is because it took the bishops generations to define who and what Jesus was. Years were spent on each carefully chosen word. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. Intelligent people can hold, understand and believe in two different diametrically opposed ideas at the same time. I believe most of the Bible is a parable with morals to teach. Not a factual account of history. I can learn the moral, ethical and spiritual lessons of the Bible without being a fundamentalist who takes the Bible literally. And that is what most educated believers do. I'm not a believer because the Bible, priest or church tells me to. I'm a believer because I'm happier and more successful as a believer, than as a non believer. I was always a good person. I was once an Atheist and an Agnostic for years. It didn't work for me. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 17:48:03 GMT
Why does religion even have to be present though? Is that what you are implying, just to be clear on your stance? I haven't read through all the posts. Because when used properly, religion is good. It teaches morality, ethics and spirituality. When users improperly, it teaches fanaticism. It’s misused human beings horrifically, both as victims and as attack dogs on the victims. The terror of a real Hell still fucks people up. Only religion can make good people do evil things. For me the downside of Christianity at least, if not all religion, far exceeds the upside. Certainly there were great advantages for people to become Christians in the Dark Ages, particularly for the uncivilized folks north of the Alps, but Christianity has outlived its usefulness. Too many inside the faith want sinful Humanity and the old Earth to be destroyed or will stand aside and let it happen because that’s fulfillment of the Prophecy. It’s the completion of God’s creation. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 17:58:30 GMT
But you are not supposed to know, it’s a matter of faith. [img alt=" " class="smile" src="http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/CBubFSUbXfyoLMZUjeBb.gif" style="max-width:100%;"] And back to square one. It’s pointless to ask for salvation if you don’t think salvation is an actual thing. You’re rather like many Jews who are functionally agnostic, but keep the tradition alive if not the faith. The crux is, and regardless if he was born to a virgin, you either believe Jesus got up off the slab on Easter Sunday morning after three days dead or he didn’t. It can’t be both. If you believe he can come back to life and now sits at the right hand the Father, then it’s possible He, as maker of Heaven and Earth, did it only 6,000 years ago. I like Jesus myself and his mission love. I enjoy reading the Bible. There is ancient wisdom inside it. I don’t believe in any part of Jesus’ divinity. I believe it’s also possible he is more than one person or maybe never existed at all. The Gospels are still great works. It’s also possible Paul of Tarsus pretty made most of him up when he become a true believer after his incident on the road to Damascus. I also stuck around the church longer than I should after I reconciled my lingering incredulity. The tradition and spirituality can be rich and beautiful, but I can longer identify with. It is a Near Eastern religion that I admire cultural but it’s not for me. None of “my peeps” came from there. As I said above, I’m not a hardcore materialist, but after a thorough historical and rational examination, Christianity made me a true atheist, so I can thank Christianity for that completed journey. Spirituality, I’m a happy person. Now I can be totally open to new ideas on a multiverse I can identify with. Have you noticed how the bulk of the creed…which is Christianity in a nutshell…is heavy on the Jesus part. This is because it took the bishops generations to define who and what Jesus was. Years were spent on each carefully chosen word. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. Intelligent people can hold, understand and believe in two different diametrically opposed ideas at the same time. I believe most of the Bible is a parable with morals to teach. Not a factual account of history. I can learn the moral, ethical and spiritual lessons of the Bible without being a fundamentalist who takes the Bible literally. And that is what most educated believers do. I'm not a believer because the Bible, priest or church tells me to. I'm a believer because I'm happier and more successful as a believer, than as a non believer. I was always a good person. I was once an Atheist and an Agnostic for years. It didn't work for me. Really? I personally think that’s no longer possible. I used to think something similar, but reading that sentence bends my mind now. However, it’s your choice and since they stopped burning heretics a while back, you now have the luxury of being openminded. And you can get all the above from any number of sources. Try exploring other ideas, it’s not like God will damn you as an apostate since there is no hell. Just for fun, go through the Nicene creed and highlight what you think is physically, not metaphysically, factual. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 18:09:13 GMT
Because when used properly, religion is good. It teaches morality, ethics and spirituality. When users improperly, it teaches fanaticism. It’s misused human beings horrifically, both as victims and as attack dogs on the victims. The terror of a real Hell still fucks people up. Only religion can make good people do evil things. For me the downside of Christianity at least, if not all religion, far exceeds the upside. Certainly there were great advantages for people to become Christians in the Dark Ages, particularly for the uncivilized folks north of the Alps, but Christianity has outlived its usefulness. Too many inside the faith want sinful Humanity and the old Earth to be destroyed or will stand aside and let it happen because that’s fulfillment of the Prophecy. It’s the completion of God’s creation. I disagree. I'm not going to repeat myself. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 18:25:18 GMT
It’s misused human beings horrifically, both as victims and as attack dogs on the victims. The terror of a real Hell still fucks people up. Only religion can make good people do evil things. For me the downside of Christianity at least, if not all religion, far exceeds the upside. Certainly there were great advantages for people to become Christians in the Dark Ages, particularly for the uncivilized folks north of the Alps, but Christianity has outlived its usefulness. Too many inside the faith want sinful Humanity and the old Earth to be destroyed or will stand aside and let it happen because that’s fulfillment of the Prophecy. It’s the completion of God’s creation. I disagree. I'm not going to repeat myself. Okay. It’s interesting how you can hold your faith in a superposition, rather like a Schroedinger's Jesus. If I were still in school, this would make for an interesting thesis. One thing though, do not mistake my atheism for ignorance. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 21:24:18 GMT
I disagree. I'm not going to repeat myself. Okay. 1) It’s interesting how you can hold your faith in a superposition, rather like a Schroedinger's Jesus. If I were still in school, this would make for an interesting thesis. 2) One thing though, do not mistake my atheism for ignorance. 1) As I've been saying, life is not as easy as a simple "either or" (black and white). It's more complicated (shades of grey). 2) Okay, not ignorance. How about a simple minded naiveté? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 22:04:13 GMT
Okay. 1) It’s interesting how you can hold your faith in a superposition, rather like a Schroedinger's Jesus. If I were still in school, this would make for an interesting thesis. 2) One thing though, do not mistake my atheism for ignorance. 1) As I've been saying, life is not as easy as a simple "either or" (black and white). It's more complicated (shades of grey). 2) Okay, not ignorance. How about a simple minded naiveté?I’m not arguing against your personal justification for continuing to worship a Big Other, I get that more than you know because I been there and done that. You already accept the Bible as partally false, like this Big Other never conversed with an Adam and Eve, for instance. However, which parts do you accept as true? Because the entire religion and the faith required to sustain it as the Body of Christ is predicated on the Bible. There is very little outside of it that makes up core Christianity. The above creed is the core. And if you reject the core, what is it specifically that keeps you hoping? How do fit yourself into this Mystical Body, if you don’t accept the biblical suspension of reality or miracles that herald Its coming? Because that’s where I couldn’t keep going and had to accept it for what it was, a self perpetuating meta-institution. There might be a God, but he is not to be found in the doctrine of the church, but maybe in the mythical spirit of his message. If that’s it, then alrighty then. You still have hope. And I know a lot about Catholicism, I’ve posted a pix before, and will again if you want to see it, but I was a trained, hands laid on by the bishop, lay minister at one time. So, not ignorant, nor naive. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 22:41:23 GMT
1) As I've been saying, life is not as easy as a simple "either or" (black and white). It's more complicated (shades of grey). 2) Okay, not ignorance. How about a simple minded naiveté?I’m not arguing against your personal justification for continuing to worship a Big Other, I get that more than you know because I been there and done that. You already accept the Bible as partally false, like this Big Other never conversed with an Adam and Eve, for instance. However, which parts do you accept as true? Because the entire religion and the faith required to sustain it as the Body of Christ is predicated on the Bible. There is very little outside of it that makes up core Christianity. The above creed is the core. And if you reject the core, what is it specifically that keeps you hoping? How do fit yourself into this Mystical Body, if you don’t accept the biblical suspension of reality or miracles that herald Its coming? Because that’s where I couldn’t keep going and had to accept it for what it was, a self perpetuating meta-institution. There might be a God, but he is not to be found in the doctrine of the church, but maybe in the mythical spirit of his message. If that’s it, then alrighty then. You still have hope. And I know a lot about Catholicism, I’ve posted a pix before, and will again if you want to see it, but I was a trained, hands laid on by the bishop, lay minister at one time. So, not ignorant, nor naive. God created everything God controls everything. God knows everything. God gave us free will. Divine justice, karma, whatever goes around, comes around. Be a good person. Don't lie, cheat, steal or kill. God is not necessarily a single spirit. But all knowing and all powerful regardless. God, Allah, Yaweh, all the same God. (I don't think God cares if a person is a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddist, or a Hindu. As long as they are good people. ) Praising God through prayer and action will yield better results in the long and short term than any other strategy of life. In my personal experience, just being a good person is not as good as being a good person and believing in God. . . . Off the top of my head. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 29, 2022 22:58:48 GMT
I’m not arguing against your personal justification for continuing to worship a Big Other, I get that more than you know because I been there and done that. You already accept the Bible as partally false, like this Big Other never conversed with an Adam and Eve, for instance. However, which parts do you accept as true? Because the entire religion and the faith required to sustain it as the Body of Christ is predicated on the Bible. There is very little outside of it that makes up core Christianity. The above creed is the core. And if you reject the core, what is it specifically that keeps you hoping? How do fit yourself into this Mystical Body, if you don’t accept the biblical suspension of reality or miracles that herald Its coming? Because that’s where I couldn’t keep going and had to accept it for what it was, a self perpetuating meta-institution. There might be a God, but he is not to be found in the doctrine of the church, but maybe in the mythical spirit of his message. If that’s it, then alrighty then. You still have hope. And I know a lot about Catholicism, I’ve posted a pix before, and will again if you want to see it, but I was a trained, hands laid on by the bishop, lay minister at one time. So, not ignorant, nor naive. God created everything God controls everything. God knows everything. God gave us free will. Divine justice, karma, whatever goes around, comes around. Be a good person. Don't lie, cheat, steal or kill. God is not necessarily a single spirit. But all knowing and all powerful regardless. God, Allah, Yaweh, all the same God. (I don't think God cares if a person is a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddist, or a Hindu. As long as they are good people. ) Praising God through prayer and action will yield better results in the long and short term than any other strategy of life. In my personal experience, just being a good person is not as good as being a good person and believing in God. . . . Off the top of my head. Therefore, do you separate Creation into two modes of Being as the “Big Bang” universe and a cosmological universe? |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 23:22:56 GMT
God created everything God controls everything. God knows everything. God gave us free will. Divine justice, karma, whatever goes around, comes around. Be a good person. Don't lie, cheat, steal or kill. God is not necessarily a single spirit. But all knowing and all powerful regardless. God, Allah, Yaweh, all the same God. (I don't think God cares if a person is a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddist, or a Hindu. As long as they are good people. ) Praising God through prayer and action will yield better results in the long and short term than any other strategy of life. In my personal experience, just being a good person is not as good as being a good person and believing in God. . . . Off the top of my head. Therefore, do you separate Creation into two modes of Being as the “Big Bang” universe and a cosmological universe? I don't know what a cosmological universe is. Science is the study of, and search for facts. Religion is spiritual. The Bible and religion are not science or history. They are morals, ethics and spirituality. To me science and religion are not incompatible. They are just two different things. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Sept 29, 2022 23:50:30 GMT
Because when used properly, religion is good. It teaches morality, ethics and spirituality. When users improperly, it teaches fanaticism. Why does one need religion though to teach these things?
I don't doubt that religion has helped people, it provides a sense of community and purpose for many, yet morality and ethics are all born out of attitude and intention and spirtuality is really all about connection.
Religion can be about controlling and manipulating and it can also promote delusion.
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Post by stammerhead on Sept 29, 2022 23:59:04 GMT
This started out as an amusing take on ignorance. What on Earth happened? ![[sun]](http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/xxbZAntehYJKWsTebBax.gif) |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 29, 2022 23:59:17 GMT
Because when used properly, religion is good. It teaches morality, ethics and spirituality. When users improperly, it teaches fanaticism. Why does one need religion though to teach these things?
I don't doubt that religion has helped people, it provides a sense of community and purpose for many, yet morality and ethics are all born out of attitude and intention and spirtuality is really all about connection.
Religion can be about controlling and manipulating and it can also promote delusion.
They don't need religion to teach those things. If taught properly, religion won't be about controlling, manipulating or promoting delusion. That is an example of the misuse of religion. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Sept 29, 2022 23:59:28 GMT
Then without religion, or religious belief, there would be nothing to misuse.
No. Many religious people have no education. Religion, when used properly, provides education, morals, ethics and spirituality. Religion teaches separatism. The irony being, it can take people away from God more than anything. God not being religious, (which is man made belief), and not being supreme/superior to anything else. God is just within, without and everything. |
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Post by movieliker on Sept 30, 2022 0:01:46 GMT
No. Many religious people have no education. Religion, when used properly, provides education, morals, ethics and spirituality. Religion teaches separatism. The irony being, it can take people away from God more than anything. God not being religious, (which is man made belief), and not being supreme/superior to anything else. God is just within, without and everything. I was raised in the Catholic Church. It never taught me about separatism or to separate myself from others. To the contrary, as I told pilarinhavana, we were taught, "You love God by loving others". |
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