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Post by Prince Myshkin on Jan 29, 2023 18:07:49 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
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Post by pathfinder on Jan 30, 2023 23:02:23 GMT
1.) And the southern states had become an independent nation?
2.) Would they still allow slavery?
3.) If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
4.) Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
5.) How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
6.) What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
You can speculate on this stuff endlessly. What if the Founding Fathers lost the Revolutionary War. We would still be part of the British Empire subject to British Law and overlordship.
1.) Yes.
2.) The drive to end slavery was increasing in the Western World.
3.) Yes. 4.) That one. Who knows. 5.) Weaker. 6.) A third world shithole. The people back then were very much a structured stratified society, like India. If you were born low class you most likely died low class. No allowance for upward mobility. It didn't matter your skin color.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Jan 31, 2023 6:45:11 GMT
1.) And the southern states had become an independent nation?
2.) Would they still allow slavery?
3.) If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
4.) Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
5.) How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
6.) What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
You can speculate on this stuff endlessly. What if the Founding Fathers lost the Revolutionary War. We would still be part of the British Empire subject to British Law and overlordship.
1.) Yes.
2.) The drive to end slavery was increasing in the Western World.
3.) Yes. 4.) That one. Who knows. 5.) Weaker. 6.) A third world shithole. The people back then were very much a structured stratified society, like India. If you were born low class you most likely died low class. No allowance for upward mobility. It didn't matter your skin color.
If the U.S. had lost the Revolutionary War, we would have ended up like Canada and Australia and gained independence within the British Commonwealth.
I agree with you that the Confederacy would have ended slavery on its own. It was an untenable system in the modern world. There would have been a Civil Rights movement there though to end Jim Crow. If the South had not reformed its racial system, there would have been a violent revolutionary movement among blacks.
I disagree it would have been third world. Even European nations like Spain and Italy which experimented with fascism are now first world relatively wealthy countries.
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Post by ayatollah on Feb 20, 2023 1:41:30 GMT
I don't see the CSA siding with Germany in WW2 on principle. They were racist, but not antisemitic. Some of the CSA's highest ranking officials, Attorney General Judah Benjamin and Treasurer David Levy Yulee (who has a county named after him in Florida) were Jewish.
But as always in alternate history, God only knows how different circumstances would've made strange bedfellows.
I think they'd have stayed out of it.
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Post by yggdrasil on Feb 20, 2023 12:59:20 GMT
I don't see the CSA siding with Germany in WW2 on principle. They were racist, but not antisemitic. Some of the CSA's highest ranking officials, Attorney General Judah Benjamin and Treasurer David Levy Yulee (who has a county named after him in Florida) were Jewish. But as always in alternate history, God only knows how different circumstances would've made strange bedfellows. I think they'd have stayed out of it. You are forgetting how strong the pro German lobby was in the US at the time though, played a big part in America refusing to get involved in the early days. Would have been quite simple to have just stayed out the conflict, even if it would have meant Germany knocking on the door come the mid 50's which would have been the likely outcome.
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Post by Hnefahogg on Apr 27, 2023 13:55:38 GMT
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow? Would they have supported Germany in World War II? I found a book that has a poll conducted in 1943 which found that "90 percent of the American people stated that they would rather loose [sic] the war than give full equality to the American Negroes". linkAlso from: David Nirenberg (2013) "Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition" Read book
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mikef6
Elliot Carver
 
Posts: 313
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Post by mikef6 on Apr 27, 2023 15:28:30 GMT
There is an excellent mockumentary (don’t like that word but it is in common use) on this subject from 2004, “CSA: The Confederate States Of America” written and directed by Todd Willmott.
Almost 20-years ago now, I posted this on the weekly thread on Classic Film at the old database boards:
It is a fake documentary in the Ken Burns style. The announcer at the beginning assures us that we will be seeing it uncut. We also see commercials and promos for upcoming programs. The premise is that during the American Civil War, the South got recognition and support from Britain and France. The introduction of troops from those countries against the United States at the Battle of Gettysburg set the Union forces to rout. The Confederate army moved on to Washington and the resulting rampage laid waste to the big cities of the North. Now, a British Television production company has produced this documentary of the history of the Confederate States Of America – and the history of slavery - from their victory in the Northern War Of Aggression (as it came to be known) until the 21st century. Willmott’s well thought out alternate history gives us plenty of room for discussion and is often extremely funny. This may be the movie to show us how far race relations have (and haven’t) progressed in the last century and a half.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Apr 27, 2023 15:41:01 GMT
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow? Would they have supported Germany in World War II? I found a book that has a poll conducted in 1943 which found that "90 percent of the American people stated that they would rather loose [sic] the war than give full equality to the American Negroes". linkAlso from: David Nirenberg (2013) "Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition" Read bookSad how ingrained is the hate - blacks, Jews and homosexuals. And I don't trust the majority not to support death camps again.
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Post by clusium on Apr 27, 2023 19:06:16 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
The South probably would have become a separate nation, & slavery would have lasted longer. However, it (slavery) would have ended by now. The same Civil Rights movement which ended segregation in the South, would have still risen & ended slavery.
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Post by politicidal1 on May 11, 2023 0:07:38 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
The South probably would have become a separate nation, & slavery would have lasted longer. However, it (slavery) would have ended by now. The same Civil Rights movement which ended segregation in the South, would have still risen & ended slavery. If it succeeded then it might had lasted about the same or longer as it did in Brazil which abolished slavery in the 1880s. Though peonage and other forms of debt bondage would probably run rampant against blacks or whatever European immigrants went to the Confederacy instead. Like Sunnyside Plantation but on a national scale.
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Post by Winter_King on May 19, 2023 15:02:08 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
Nowadays? They could but they would be treated as a pariah state. Same as above. WWII would've been totally different because the existence of the CSA might change what happens in WW1. For example Germany could've won WW1 which means no Nazis.
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Post by Winter_King on May 19, 2023 15:04:55 GMT
There is a series of books by Harry Turtledove (the father of alternate history) called Southern Victory which details the victory of the CSA in the American Civil War and accompanies what happens until the mid 20th century. Both World Wars are vastly different and it makes sense. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Victory
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Post by Prince Myshkin on May 19, 2023 18:59:32 GMT
There is a series of books by Harry Turtledove (the father of alternate history) called Southern Victory which details the victory of the CSA in the American Civil War and accompanies what happens until the mid 20th century. Both World Wars are vastly different and it makes sense. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_VictoryI think the U.S. and the Confederacy, having common American ties, would have peacefully coexisted and become trading partners. By 1900 the Confederacy would have followed suit with the rest of the world and abolished slavery. But there would still have been apartheid and segregation in the South. That's interesting. If the Kaiser had won World War I, there probably would have still been a far right Nazi movement agitating against the imperial German government.
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Post by mowlick on May 21, 2023 12:52:08 GMT
There is a popular question about the American Civil War which is asks where was the second largest city in the South.
And the answer is anywhere that the Army of the Potomac was camped at any given time.
The difference between the two sides in terms of men, money and munitions was such that the only way that the South could have won would have been if it had turned into the North
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Post by papamihel on May 22, 2023 6:26:23 GMT
Slavery was already outdated at the time of the War. Economically, I mean. At some point the economical and political necessities would have forced the issue.
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