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Post by SixOfTheRichest on May 24, 2023 13:44:36 GMT
I’m not getting your segue into the “fun” point. It’s a waste of time discussing something that can’t be known or has no evidence for. That's not my problem. I am asking for clarity. It was your point. |
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Post by Prince Myshkin on May 24, 2023 17:26:56 GMT
I agree, historical "what ifs" are pointless. But just because it`s pointless, does not mean it can`t be fun. A lot of things that are fun or people think are fun, are pointless. I’m not getting your segue into the “fun” point. It’s a waste of time discussing something that can’t be known or has no evidence for.
Toasty, it's just an exercise. It gives one the chance to explore history and political ideas and how they evolve.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on May 24, 2023 18:56:20 GMT
No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser.
There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
But fascism didn't appear in different countries for the same reasons. Germany's Nazism is directly connected to the defeat of WW1, the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the policies of Weimar Germany. The nationalists would've been in power if Germany had won WW1. So there would be no reason to "emerge". It was already emerged. Again, many of the Nazi supporters were the old aristocracy of the Kaiser. They supported Hitler because they had lost power during the inter war years. This wouldn't have happened in Germany was the victor Germany had a monarchy under the Kaiser. Both Spain and Italy had monarchies when fascist movements took control in those countries.
And the roots of Nazism and fascism in Germany go back to the 19th century.
So while a loss in World War I was impetus and helped the Nazis recruit and grow, there still would have been populist nationalist elements in Germany just as there were in Spain and Italy.
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Post by Winter_King on May 24, 2023 19:00:59 GMT
But fascism didn't appear in different countries for the same reasons. Germany's Nazism is directly connected to the defeat of WW1, the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the policies of Weimar Germany. The nationalists would've been in power if Germany had won WW1. So there would be no reason to "emerge". It was already emerged. Again, many of the Nazi supporters were the old aristocracy of the Kaiser. They supported Hitler because they had lost power during the inter war years. This wouldn't have happened in Germany was the victor Germany had a monarchy under the Kaiser. Both Spain and Italy had monarchies when fascist movements took control in those countries.
And the roots of Nazism and fascism in Germany go back to the 19th century.
So while a loss in World War I was impetus and helped the Nazis recruit and grow, there still would have been populist nationalist elements in Germany just as there were in Spain and Italy.
But it would've been fringe and small. No "stab-in-the-back" legend. No idea of Jews sabotaging Germany's war effort. |
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Post by Prince Myshkin on May 24, 2023 19:54:39 GMT
Germany had a monarchy under the Kaiser. Both Spain and Italy had monarchies when fascist movements took control in those countries.
And the roots of Nazism and fascism in Germany go back to the 19th century.
So while a loss in World War I was impetus and helped the Nazis recruit and grow, there still would have been populist nationalist elements in Germany just as there were in Spain and Italy.
But it would've been fringe and small. No "stab-in-the-back" legend. No idea of Jews sabotaging Germany's war effort. I don't see how we can make that assertion. Again, Italy and Spain had strong fascist movements which took power under monarchies like the one in Germany.
And anti-Semitism in Germany didn't start after World War I. It goes back to the Middle Ages.
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Post by Winter_King on May 24, 2023 20:16:13 GMT
But it would've been fringe and small. No "stab-in-the-back" legend. No idea of Jews sabotaging Germany's war effort. I don't see how we can make that assertion. Again, Italy and Spain had strong fascist movements which took power under monarchies like the one in Germany.
And anti-Semitism in Germany didn't start after World War I. It goes back to the Middle Ages.
It's not about being ruled by a monarchy or a Republic. Btw, Spain was a Republic before the civil war. It's about the social and economical conditions of country combined with nationalistic fervor. Those conditions were different for Germany, Italy and Spain. The rise of the Nazism in Germany is directly related to the defeat of World War 1. You can't have one without the other. Germany as the victor of WW1, would've been far more powerful than the Weimar Republic ever was. It wouldn't have been the Social Democrats in power but the same Imperial Germany of before, only even more stronger with the Emperor's position even stronger. There wouldn't have been a resentment among the Prussian aristocracy towards the government because they were the government. And they were already right wing. In fact, if Germany had won WW1, the threat to the Imperial German government would more likely come from the left. Particulary from the German Communist Party. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on May 24, 2023 22:55:06 GMT
I’m not getting your segue into the “fun” point. It’s a waste of time discussing something that can’t be known or has no evidence for.
Toasty, it's just an exercise. It gives one the chance to explore history and political ideas and how they evolve.
Perhaps! It’s talking in circles though and doesn’t resolve or change. |
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Post by JHA Durant on May 25, 2023 4:27:36 GMT
T here's a hugely popular Hearts of Iron IV mod called Kaiserreich which explores a German victory in World War 1 and the aftermath. Althistoryhub did a video on it: I wish I knew how to play that game but every time I start, it feels too complex and I just give up. You're not the only one! The focus trees can be really annoying and can limit the gameplay after about 1942. I prefer Hearts of Iron III or Darkest Hour, or Arsenal of Democracy. WAY more flexibility. |
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Post by yggdrasil on May 25, 2023 10:43:29 GMT
Does the makeup of the hardcore far right States match to an extent the Confederacy States?
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Post by mowlick on May 25, 2023 10:47:54 GMT
Slavery was already outdated at the time of the War. Economically, I mean. At some point the economical and political necessities would have forced the issue. That is a good point, but it is amazing how often dim witted prejudice over rides common sense. The South was primarily agricultural and the various depressions and technological advances to which farming is prone should have meant that the slave holders would have been delighted to see the back of their surplus labour, but probably not.
In the 60s I was in a shop in Cape Town, where they had black staff to serve the black customers and white staff for white folk. It did not make any moral or economic sense, but South Africa maintained Apartheid until the bitter end.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 29, 2023 2:55:12 GMT
Slavery was dying in the US in 1860 but the South couldn't see it. The four northernmost Slave states, Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri had few slaves and never seriously contemplated secession. And huge tracts of the South had few slaves. Western Virginia, eastern Tennessee, western North Carolina, northern Alabama was very pro Union and anti Slavery. And the slave population was dwindling. Reproduction could not keep place with runaways, freeing slaves and death. The Confederate Constitution forbade the slave trade so the slave population could not be replenished. The CSA fought for the continuation of slavery in the territories, where it cold not stick. Slavery needed plantations and what kind of plantations could you have in Montana? Had the CSA won, slavery would have died anyway. I could see the non-slave states, Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Texas, Florida, Arkansas having conflict the the big slave states, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama. Could these states secede from secession, sure.
As far as international what if's, WWI would have been the potential big one. If France and especially Britain helped the CSA gain its independence it might have soured US-UK relations for good. Could the North have supported the Central Powers and the South support the Entente, could be. And that would have given Germany the win
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Post by Captain Fabuloso on Jun 13, 2023 9:31:33 GMT
Ultimately the reason the northern states and Europe abandoned slavery were economic. A casual paid workforce was cheaper and easier to maintain. Slavery held out in the Confederacy because it suited intensive plantation work, but eventually the development of new industries in the south would have seen it dying off there too.
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Post by lunda2222 on Jun 21, 2023 2:57:53 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
Honestly, I think slavery would have gradually faded away over the next 30-50 years. Not because of any moral objections, but because of technology. It would simply far cheaper to use machines rather than slave labour.
The plantations didn't die out from the lack of slave labour, it vanished because of more modern industries.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jun 23, 2023 9:51:33 GMT
And the southern states had become an independent nation?
Would they still allow slavery?
If not slavery, would they still have Jim Crow?
Would they have supported Germany in World War II?
How different would the rest of the United States be without southern political and cultural power?
What would the Confederacy be like in 2023?
Honestly, I think slavery would have gradually faded away over the next 30-50 years. Not because of any moral objections, but because of technology. It would simply far cheaper to use machines rather than slave labour.
The plantations didn't die out from the lack of slave labour, it vanished because of more modern industries.
Had the Confederacy won their revolution, they would’ve been pressured to end slavery if they wanted to be a part of global economics. But the plantation class was dug into their slavery as God’s plan beliefs and they were ruling class. The poor whites of the South did not fight for persevering slavery so much as from fear of what would happen to them if the black men were freed. They couldn’t do the work in the fields at the same pace nor could afford to live on what slaves got by on. They feared slave rebellions like had happened in the West Indies. The people wanted the war the most were the Southern aristocrats, however the true British aristocrats themselves never immigrated to America, but the middle-class did, and they became the antebellum aristocracy mimicking the 17th and 18th century English quasi-feudal landed gentry. Also, if the South had won, right now everything below the Mason-Dixon to California would be CSA territory. |
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