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Post by ayatollah on Apr 3, 2023 1:44:31 GMT
The Fourth Crusade that sacked Constantinople in 1204 gets a bad rap, but it preserved some Eastern Roman artifacts that probably would've been destroyed or just considered garbage by the Ottomans later. Take for example the Four Tetrarchs statue now in the side of the Basilica San Marco, or the Icon of the Archangel Micheal, or the famous Horses of Saint Mark.
People will point to how the Ottomans covered or painted over Christian iconography in Haghia Sophia but these were works of art built into the building itself and couldn't be removed with doing expensive damage to a ridiculously impressive place the Sultans wanted for their own house of worship.
Things that were portable, forget it.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 6, 2023 1:12:42 GMT
Give us history buffs a break.
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 6, 2023 9:20:28 GMT
The Fourth Crusade that sacked Constantinople in 1204 gets a bad rap, but it preserved some Eastern Roman artifacts that probably would've been destroyed or just considered garbage by the Ottomans later. Take for example the Four Tetrarchs statue now in the side of the Basilica San Marco, or the Icon of the Archangel Micheal, or the famous Horses of Saint Mark. People will point to how the Ottomans covered or painted over Christian iconography in Haghia Sophia but these were works of art built into the building itself and couldn't be removed with doing expensive damage to a ridiculously impressive place the Sultans wanted for their own house of worship. Things that were portable, forget it. Assumes that the Ottomans would've conquered Constantinople later anyway. |
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Post by bomtombadil on Apr 6, 2023 12:56:26 GMT
Ottomans wage their battles to destroy the evil forces of all the infidels.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 6, 2023 14:32:39 GMT
Ottomans wage their battles to destroy the evil forces of all the infidels. Which in theory is what the righteous is supposed to do. However, in the Fourth Crusade, it was the righteous, not just battling, but raping and pillaging the righteous more than the infidel. I think us Westerners should admit we have long been a society of pirates and travelers. |
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Post by clusium on Apr 6, 2023 14:33:06 GMT
Myths about the Crusades
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 6, 2023 15:08:14 GMT
The biggest myth is they were done to protect Christian pilgrims.
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 30, 2023 2:57:51 GMT
I'm not sitting through all that, if something is relevant to the Fourth Crusade saving Byzantine art in it just tell me. |
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 30, 2023 2:58:37 GMT
The Fourth Crusade that sacked Constantinople in 1204 gets a bad rap, but it preserved some Eastern Roman artifacts that probably would've been destroyed or just considered garbage by the Ottomans later. Take for example the Four Tetrarchs statue now in the side of the Basilica San Marco, or the Icon of the Archangel Micheal, or the famous Horses of Saint Mark. People will point to how the Ottomans covered or painted over Christian iconography in Haghia Sophia but these were works of art built into the building itself and couldn't be removed with doing expensive damage to a ridiculously impressive place the Sultans wanted for their own house of worship. Things that were portable, forget it. Assumes that the Ottomans would've conquered Constantinople later anyway. Yes, they almost certainly would've. |
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 30, 2023 3:01:59 GMT
Give us history buffs a break. Wut? |
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 30, 2023 3:07:58 GMT
Ottomans wage their battles to destroy the evil forces of all the infidels. Which in theory is what the righteous is supposed to do. However, in the Fourth Crusade, it was the righteous, not just battling, but raping and pillaging the righteous more than the infidel. I think us Westerners should admit we have long been a society of pirates and travelers. Do you people ever stop to think about how most of what is now the Islamic world was once Christian? It didn't get that way by asking people to convert politely. As always, like it's in your DNA, your only concern with raping and pillaging, conquest and slavery, is just a path to attack us. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 30, 2023 3:39:14 GMT
Which in theory is what the righteous is supposed to do. However, in the Fourth Crusade, it was the righteous, not just battling, but raping and pillaging the righteous more than the infidel. I think us Westerners should admit we have long been a society of pirates and travelers. Do you people ever stop to think about how most of what is now the Islamic world was once Christian? It didn't get that way by asking people to convert politely. As always, like it's in your DNA, your only concern with raping and pillaging, conquest and slavery, is just a path to attack us. Do you people…. People in the 7th Saudi Arabia lived in a pagan tribal situation where raiding other tribes was a means of earning a living, not unlike a-viking. They were also the pack traders bringing value commodities from Africa and India like spice, some of which was more valuable than gold. Using spice was a high status symbol and the wealthy of Europe wanted it. Of course the average person never got to taste such luxury, they only fought the wars to make the lords and bishops rich. The Arabians were pirates and travelers, aka camel raiders, too and once Mohammad and the Five Rightly Guided Caliphs established their new monotheistic tribal religion as the top one after capturing the pagan shrine, the Kaba, they burned all the idols except for icons of Jesus and Mary. They also controlled a vital logistics conduit. There might not have been a problem, but like the Christians, they would only do business with other Muslims. As Islam converted the Middle East from a form of Christianity in the region the Church considered heretical, the Church was converting the Northern pagans for the same reasons: building a trade network under the control of the nobility and church. The Crusades were not about recapturing Jerusalem for the glory of God or protecting pilgrims, though that was always the recruitment campaign, so much as to make fortunes and earn kingdoms for the second and third noble sons who could not inherit Dad’s estate back in Europe. These foreign wars meant the lads would not be attacking his brother’s kingdom. And most of the Crusades were not against just Muslims, but other Christians like the Bogomils, Cathars, Arian, and later Orthodox Christians. Once the Holy Land fell entirely to Muslim kings, as well as Constantinople, the alternative was to find an another means to get at those spices. So Columbus sailed due West. And spice invented capitalism. The first corporation was the Dutch East India Company. |
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 30, 2023 5:45:33 GMT
Do you people ever stop to think about how most of what is now the Islamic world was once Christian? It didn't get that way by asking people to convert politely. As always, like it's in your DNA, your only concern with raping and pillaging, conquest and slavery, is just a path to attack us. Do you people…. People in the 7th Saudi Arabia lived in a pagan tribal situation where raiding other tribes was a means of earning a living, not unlike a-viking. They were also the pack traders bringing value commodities from Africa and India like spice, some of which was more valuable than gold. Using spice was a high status symbol and the wealthy of Europe wanted it. Of course the average person never got to taste such luxury, they only fought the wars to make the lords and bishops rich. The Arabians were pirates and travelers, aka camel raiders, too and once Mohammad and the Five Rightly Guided Caliphs established their new monotheistic tribal religion as the top one after capturing the pagan shrine, the Kaba, they burned all the idols except for icons of Jesus and Mary. They also controlled a vital logistics conduit. There might not have been a problem, but like the Christians, they would only do business with other Muslims. As Islam converted the Middle East from a form of Christianity in the region the Church considered heretical, the Church was converting the Northern pagans for the same reasons: building a trade network under the control of the nobility and church. The Crusades were not about recapturing Jerusalem for the glory of God or protecting pilgrims, though that was always the recruitment campaign, so much as to make fortunes and earn kingdoms for the second and third noble sons who could not inherit Dad’s estate back in Europe. These foreign wars meant the lads would not be attacking his brother’s kingdom. And most of the Crusades were not against just Muslims, but other Christians like the Bogomils, Cathars, Arian, and later Orthodox Christians. Once the Holy Land fell entirely to Muslim kings, as well as Constantinople, the alternative was to find an another means to get at those spices. So Columbus sailed due West. And spice invented capitalism. The first corporation was the Dutch East India Company. If spice invented capitalism in 1453 then what were those Arabs doing trading for it further east long before 1453? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 30, 2023 5:55:55 GMT
Do you people…. People in the 7th Saudi Arabia lived in a pagan tribal situation where raiding other tribes was a means of earning a living, not unlike a-viking. They were also the pack traders bringing value commodities from Africa and India like spice, some of which was more valuable than gold. Using spice was a high status symbol and the wealthy of Europe wanted it. Of course the average person never got to taste such luxury, they only fought the wars to make the lords and bishops rich. The Arabians were pirates and travelers, aka camel raiders, too and once Mohammad and the Five Rightly Guided Caliphs established their new monotheistic tribal religion as the top one after capturing the pagan shrine, the Kaba, they burned all the idols except for icons of Jesus and Mary. They also controlled a vital logistics conduit. There might not have been a problem, but like the Christians, they would only do business with other Muslims. As Islam converted the Middle East from a form of Christianity in the region the Church considered heretical, the Church was converting the Northern pagans for the same reasons: building a trade network under the control of the nobility and church. The Crusades were not about recapturing Jerusalem for the glory of God or protecting pilgrims, though that was always the recruitment campaign, so much as to make fortunes and earn kingdoms for the second and third noble sons who could not inherit Dad’s estate back in Europe. These foreign wars meant the lads would not be attacking his brother’s kingdom. And most of the Crusades were not against just Muslims, but other Christians like the Bogomils, Cathars, Arian, and later Orthodox Christians. Once the Holy Land fell entirely to Muslim kings, as well as Constantinople, the alternative was to find an another means to get at those spices. So Columbus sailed due West. And spice invented capitalism. The first corporation was the Dutch East India Company. If spice invented capitalism in 1453 then what were those Arabs doing trading for it further east long before 1453? It was capitalism because it was an investor’s enterprise. They sold shares in the company under a charter and the investors shared the profit, that had never been done before. The Dutch fly under the radar, but they invented the system we still use today. There was a lucrative spice island called Ren in the South Pacific that the Dutch wanted, but the English had claim to it, so the Dutch traded Manhattan for it. |
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Post by papamihel on May 25, 2023 11:41:05 GMT
The Fourth Crusade that sacked Constantinople in 1204 gets a bad rap, but it preserved some Eastern Roman artifacts that probably would've been destroyed or just considered garbage by the Ottomans later. Take for example the Four Tetrarchs statue now in the side of the Basilica San Marco, or the Icon of the Archangel Micheal, or the famous Horses of Saint Mark. People will point to how the Ottomans covered or painted over Christian iconography in Haghia Sophia but these were works of art built into the building itself and couldn't be removed with doing expensive damage to a ridiculously impressive place the Sultans wanted for their own house of worship. Things that were portable, forget it. That's a pretty crappy justification. If it wasn't for the Latin princes raping the Empire, it might have not fallen in 1453. |
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