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Post by Meseia on May 11, 2023 8:13:05 GMT
Dr Richard Carrier says, probably.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2023 9:38:07 GMT
Every story in the bible and every story in all holy books in all religions are made up.
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Post by yggdrasil on May 11, 2023 10:11:33 GMT
the existence of the person is unlikely I think and was most likely a composite creation of a few different individuals (there were so many "prophets" doing the rounds at that time).
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 11, 2023 15:12:12 GMT
the existence of the person is unlikely I think and was most likely a composite creation of a few different individuals (there were so many "prophets" doing the rounds at that time). Probably, but it possible Jesus was the most charismatic of them, who preached loving kindness, not unlike Gandhi, rather than rebellion, and this is the model of the later figure of Christ. |
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Post by yggdrasil on May 11, 2023 16:14:45 GMT
the existence of the person is unlikely I think and was most likely a composite creation of a few different individuals (there were so many "prophets" doing the rounds at that time). Probably, but it possible Jesus was the most charismatic of them, who preached loving kindness, not unlike Gandhi, rather than rebellion, and this is the model of the later figure of Christ. What is your view on the likelihood of him knowing the Old Testament and merely fulfilling prophesies that he was already aware of? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 11, 2023 16:35:38 GMT
Probably, but it possible Jesus was the most charismatic of them, who preached loving kindness, not unlike Gandhi, rather than rebellion, and this is the model of the later figure of Christ. What is your view on the likelihood of him knowing the Old Testament and merely fulfilling prophesies that he was already aware of? He would have heard a lot about it because gathering after a day’s work to talk news, politics, rumors, and religion amongst themselves in street cafes or house parties was their main form of entertainment. Imaging all the diversity of people cycling in and out of his region that violently resented their Greek occupiers. How literate he was is unknown, possibly limited to simple koine script. He lived and worked in the Greco-Romans towns north of Jerusalem, so he would have been exposed to cosmopolitan, unorthodox ideas even if he couldn’t read. Also, any OT stories he would’ve heard any in less Temple respecting more rebellious synagogues would have been the Greek translation, so he possibly heard corrupted versions of texts and since the End Times was all the talk, that’s probably where his mind was. Even in Jesus’ times, most Jews lived outside of Judea throughout the empires. Without sounding horribly cliched, the Alexandrian Jews were the bankers to some of the noble Roman families, especially the Flavians. |
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Post by Meseia on May 12, 2023 1:38:03 GMT
IMO, a real Jesus existed.
There is an alternative Roman story I've heard that he was the bastard son of a roman soldier and his mother fled Joseph to escape stoning and Jesus made up the fantasy of a virgin birth, which is not uncommon among narcissists as he would likely be to do what he did.
Richard Carrier has some interesting ideas but I believe he is a bit full of himself and overly concerned with upturning the apple cart.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 12, 2023 2:25:49 GMT
IMO, a real Jesus existed. There is an alternative Roman story I've heard that he was the bastard son of a roman soldier and his mother fled Joseph to escape stoning and Jesus made up the fantasy of a virgin birth, which is not uncommon among narcissists as he would likely be to do what he did. Richard Carrier has some interesting ideas but I believe he is a bit full of himself and overly concerned with upturning the apple cart. Jesus never claimed his mother was a virgin. Every word out of his mouth, the red letter writing, in the Gospels were written by someone else. |
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Post by Meseia on May 12, 2023 2:27:50 GMT
IMO, a real Jesus existed. There is an alternative Roman story I've heard that he was the bastard son of a roman soldier and his mother fled Joseph to escape stoning and Jesus made up the fantasy of a virgin birth, which is not uncommon among narcissists as he would likely be to do what he did. Richard Carrier has some interesting ideas but I believe he is a bit full of himself and overly concerned with upturning the apple cart. Jesus never claimed his mother was a virgin. Every word out of his mouth, the red letter writing, in the Gospels were written by someone else. We don't know what Jesus said, assuming he existed. He may well be the source of that rumor. Probably not, but possible. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 12, 2023 2:38:32 GMT
Jesus never claimed his mother was a virgin. Every word out of his mouth, the red letter writing, in the Gospels were written by someone else. We don't know what Jesus said, assuming he existed. He may well be the source of that rumor. Probably not, but possible. In Mark, he disowns her and is later identified as “the son of Mary,” which would have been highly unusual in a patriarchal society. Joseph isn’t mentioned at all until Matthew’s gospel. Though it appears first in the NT, Matthew was written later than Mark. |
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Post by Meseia on May 12, 2023 4:43:08 GMT
We don't know what Jesus said, assuming he existed. He may well be the source of that rumor. Probably not, but possible. In Mark, he disowns her and is later identified as “the son of Mary,” which would have been highly unusual in a patriarchal society. Joseph isn’t mentioned at all until Matthew’s gospel. Though it appears first in the NT, Matthew was written later than Mark. Mark is fun because it's contrarian in many ways to the traditional Sunday school version of Jesus. Another interesting phrase that I used to wonder about back in my church days and had forgotten about until now is, "...he could do no deed of power there...". Interesting isn't it. He could perform no miracles in his hometown except curing a few sick people which is a common trick, even today. |
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Post by yggdrasil on May 12, 2023 10:41:03 GMT
What is your view on the likelihood of him knowing the Old Testament and merely fulfilling prophesies that he was already aware of? He would have heard a lot about it because gathering after a day’s work to talk news, politics, rumors, and religion amongst themselves in street cafes or house parties was their main form of entertainment. Imaging all the diversity of people cycling in and out of his region that violently resented their Greek occupiers. How literate he was is unknown, possibly limited to simple koine script. He lived and worked in the Greco-Romans towns north of Jerusalem, so he would have been exposed to cosmopolitan, unorthodox ideas even if he couldn’t read. Also, any OT stories he would’ve heard any in less Temple respecting more rebellious synagogues would have been the Greek translation, so he possibly heard corrupted versions of texts and since the End Times was all the talk, that’s probably where his mind was. Even in Jesus’ times, most Jews lived outside of Judea throughout the empires. Without sounding horribly cliched, the Alexandrian Jews were the bankers to some of the noble Roman families, especially the Flavians. Isn't he referred to as "Rabbi" in the Bible which would infer he was a teacher and should have had knowledge of the OT.? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 12, 2023 15:52:03 GMT
He would have heard a lot about it because gathering after a day’s work to talk news, politics, rumors, and religion amongst themselves in street cafes or house parties was their main form of entertainment. Imaging all the diversity of people cycling in and out of his region that violently resented their Greek occupiers. How literate he was is unknown, possibly limited to simple koine script. He lived and worked in the Greco-Romans towns north of Jerusalem, so he would have been exposed to cosmopolitan, unorthodox ideas even if he couldn’t read. Also, any OT stories he would’ve heard any in less Temple respecting more rebellious synagogues would have been the Greek translation, so he possibly heard corrupted versions of texts and since the End Times was all the talk, that’s probably where his mind was. Even in Jesus’ times, most Jews lived outside of Judea throughout the empires. Without sounding horribly cliched, the Alexandrian Jews were the bankers to some of the noble Roman families, especially the Flavians. Isn't he referred to as "Rabbi" in the Bible which would infer he was a teacher and should have had knowledge of the OT.? It means teacher. Jesus’ opposition was against the schools of rabbis whom he called empty tombs for lack of loving kindness over the Law. Since he was a day laborer, he wasn’t a trained rabbi. He could have been literate, but if so, he didn’t write anything down. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on May 20, 2023 2:05:57 GMT
The stories are parables and largely rooted in the era they were made up. Archiac stories may still hold some moral value, yet are largely irrelevant today.
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Post by Meseia on May 24, 2023 5:31:39 GMT
The stories are parables and largely rooted in the era they were made up. Archiac stories may still hold some moral value, yet are largely irrelevant today. But was Jesus the man, made up? |
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