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Post by ofunknownorigins on Mar 15, 2024 4:28:16 GMT
I mean at this point the cat’s out of the bag and the Russians know you’re helping Ukraine. Ukraine is pretty desperate. So far the Ukrainians haven’t used US and U.K. long range missiles to attack targets in Russia. notoriousnobbi
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Post by JohnnyComeLately on Mar 15, 2024 4:29:40 GMT
Germany is still using Russian oil?
It's a 10 year plan. They can't pulverize Russia in 2 years. It's no secret that Western and Eastern Europe were relying on Gazprom to light their winters.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Mar 15, 2024 4:32:04 GMT
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 15, 2024 4:49:19 GMT
Everything I have to say is in the thread Carl LaFong linked to
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Post by Winter_King on Mar 15, 2024 9:00:00 GMT
Apparently that actually requires German soldiers operating the missiles inside Ukraine.
Also, how does that help Ukraine achieving their goals on the battlefield which is apparently still a complete and total victory over Russia?
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 15, 2024 9:53:59 GMT
Apparently that actually requires German soldiers operating the missiles inside Ukraine. and this is for many Germans still a no-go As Taurus has a range of about 500km (which is a wider range than the other rockets used in Ukraine) it can be of help attacking the lines where Russian fuel and ammo gets send from inner Russia towards the Ukranian front. Something as a "complete and total victory" is neither achievable nor probably wishable. But the situation as it is also is unbearable.
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Post by Winter_King on Mar 15, 2024 9:59:36 GMT
Apparently that actually requires German soldiers operating the missiles inside Ukraine. and this is for many Germans still a no-go As Taurus has a range of about 500km (which is a wider range than the other rockets used in Ukraine) it can be of help attacking the lines where Russian fuel and ammo gets send from inner Russia towards the Ukranian front. Something as a "complete and total victory" is neither achievable nor probably wishable. But the situation as it is also is unbearable.
So what's the goal? Because it's sounding that there is no endgame to this mess and it's looking that we need a decade or two of war to reach some conclusion that could probably be reached now. It's sounding like Afghanistan 2.0 where no one can define victory but we're going to keep the fight going to benefit someone (the arms industry) which were the only winners of that war. Now I have the idiot Macron suggesting sending NATO troops into Ukraine which means Western strategy for the last two years has not worked at all.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Mar 15, 2024 16:40:32 GMT
Germany's lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, has voted against sending Taurus missiles to help Ukraine fight off Russia's invasion for the third time this year. The opposition Christian Democratic Union (CDU) had called for the long-range weapon system to be deployed "immediately" as Russia makes incremental gains on the front line. Chancellor Olaf Scholz said the missiles could only be deployed using soldiers from Germany's military, the Bundeswehr, which would risk dragging Germany into the war against Russia. How did the vote play out? Of the 690 lawmakers who took part in the vote, 495 voted against the delivery with 190 in favor and five abstentions.While Scholz's Social Democrats (SPD) have taken a line against the delivery, some within the ruling coalition — particularly from the Green Party and the business-focused Free Democrats — have declared themselves in favor.The far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) and the socialist Left Party joined the SPD in voting against the motion.The debate saw Rolf Mützenich, head of the SPD parliamentary group, defend Scholz's policy saying that it was not a wise time to take political gambles. "What is needed is understanding, prudence, and clarity. And that's what the chancellor is doing in his considerations as head of government," he said. However, the CDU's deputy parliamentary group leader, Johann Wadephul, said determination and clarity were needed help and criticized the SPD's stance. "Again and again, their supposed prudence has only ever fueled Mr. Putin in his aggression against Ukraine. That is the result," Wadephul said.The conservative CDU/CSU bloc tabled similar motions in January and February that were voted down with the government arguing against the move. www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-reject-taurus-missiles-for-ukraine-again/a-68518593
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 15, 2024 17:53:55 GMT
So what's the goal? Because it's sounding that there is no endgame to this mess and it's looking that we need a decade or two of war to reach some conclusion that could probably be reached now. At the moment our ("the West") interest is that Russia doesn't go further taking over the whole Ukraine. And especially not the rest of the Southern areas towards the Black Sea. (I think we already had a conversation on why... ) That is the main objective IMHO - (but I'm not a military expert). And sadly yes, trying out weapons in practice and get a learning effect from that is also an objective. If You see what Russians are already able to do to themselves - as an Ukranian I would NOT surrender as I'd know the Russian hate towards the Ukrainians. Whether it's a reasonable goal to take back lost area is another question. But it's clear that Russia does NOT want to negotiate. Russia hopes for cracks in the Western support (one can milk division out of it) before the support in Russia cracks. And Putin does know that his people are capable of suffering and apathetic. And he wants to get rid off some of his own population (the part that is not "bio-Russian") - so he does feel no pressure to give in. He will at the very least try to continue until a potential new(old) US president gets the power again. He could stop his troops if he wanted to - but he doesn't. The inner division of the Western world on how much support for the Ukraine are we ready to give is such a nice side effect that for him that is worth the death of many Russian "lowlifes" (his view, not mine... ). There are some differences. The Afghanistan war was all over the country. And yes, the objective was ill-defined and yes, or media betrayed us here and yes, there were too few analysis on what was achievable at all - and the objectives of the many different allies had been different ( as we now know... ). There had been some good sources on the imdb2 boards at that time. In the Ukraine there is a clear front though. And it is clear what we must NOT allow Putin to do: to take over the rest of Ukraine! Because then a whole culture will be erased. And additionally Putin gets access to valuable soil with which he can blackmail a big part of the world with hunger, that makes the difference! One has to keep in mind that Macron had been one of the last Western politicians who had a call with Putin just 4 days before the invasion. So Macron has a beef with Putin. {Macron/Putin call Transcript}I copied it from a reddit source, don't know how corrrect it is
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 16, 2024 14:41:28 GMT
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Post by ofunknownorigins on Mar 16, 2024 14:49:47 GMT
Apparently that actually requires German soldiers operating the missiles inside Ukraine. and this is for many Germans still a no-go As Taurus has a range of about 500km (which is a wider range than the other rockets used in Ukraine) it can be of help attacking the lines where Russian fuel and ammo gets send from inner Russia towards the Ukranian front. Something as a "complete and total victory" is neither achievable nor probably wishable. But the situation as it is also is unbearable. Well I agree sending German soldiers into Ukraine to operate them is a bad idea. If those soldiers got killed by Russian missiles (given they fire them all over at civilian and military targets), it would create even more problems. But I think it’s known now that UK and presumably also US military personnel are in Ukraine now. Ukraine would need help with complicated systems like the Patriot missile system and U.K. missiles. This makes sense, thanks Nobbi.
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Post by ofunknownorigins on Mar 16, 2024 15:02:13 GMT
and this is for many Germans still a no-go As Taurus has a range of about 500km (which is a wider range than the other rockets used in Ukraine) it can be of help attacking the lines where Russian fuel and ammo gets send from inner Russia towards the Ukranian front. Something as a "complete and total victory" is neither achievable nor probably wishable. But the situation as it is also is unbearable.
So what's the goal? Because it's sounding that there is no endgame to this mess and it's looking that we need a decade or two of war to reach some conclusion that could probably be reached now. It's sounding like Afghanistan 2.0 where no one can define victory but we're going to keep the fight going to benefit someone (the arms industry) which were the only winners of that war. Now I have the idiot Macron suggesting sending NATO troops into Ukraine which means Western strategy for the last two years has not worked at all. Macron is on crack. Does he want a nuclear war between NATO and Russia? I agree negotiate peace or at least a ceasefire. Putin is going to keep sending men into the cauldron and Ukraine doesn’t have enough to push them out. The Russian bastards are going to get their land corridor and hold onto Crimea. The only way to break it would be sending into NATO, but that would mean a world war.
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 16, 2024 17:43:45 GMT
and this is for many Germans still a no-go As Taurus has a range of about 500km (which is a wider range than the other rockets used in Ukraine) it can be of help attacking the lines where Russian fuel and ammo gets send from inner Russia towards the Ukranian front. Something as a "complete and total victory" is neither achievable nor probably wishable. But the situation as it is also is unbearable. Well I agree sending German soldiers into Ukraine to operate them is a bad idea. If those soldiers got killed by Russian missiles (given they fire them all over at civilian and military targets), it would create even more problems. But I think it’s known now that UK and presumably also US military personnel are in Ukraine now. Ukraine would need help with complicated systems like the Patriot missile system and U.K. missiles. This makes sense, thanks Nobbi. It would also support Putin's fake narrative that Russia is threatened by the West, if the Ukrainian defense strikes too far into the Russian hinterland. But argueing about that should not be black&white stuff. It's complicated. I really do hope that Scholz and Macron do find a common line on how to handle this. Putin's Ukraine war should not lead to too many internal EU disruptions.
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Mar 17, 2024 0:19:17 GMT
And again - a reminder on what Ukrainians do fight against
Would You accept that?
I certainly would NOT!
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Post by Carl LaFong on Mar 17, 2024 10:36:03 GMT
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