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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 1:21:47 GMT
The story of the two kids that killed James Bulger. This has been nominated for an Oscar (the kid playing Venables is scary good). James Bulger's mother is understandable not happy about it. GuardianThis shit is pretty hard to watch.
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Post by yggdrasil on Jan 24, 2019 9:37:49 GMT
Don't wish to see it and can understand her anger, but I suppose that enough time has passed for the story to be fairly dramatised. I found it odd how one of them if I remember correctly "turned" into a paedophile when he had been incarcerated for so many years. Is that evidence of being "born" with those desires as he can't have had any access to the material for it to be "learnt" behaviour. What happened to the other one do you know? did he just drift into anonimity upon release?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 13:17:25 GMT
Don't wish to see it and can understand her anger, but I suppose that enough time has passed for the story to be fairly dramatised. I found it odd how one of them if I remember correctly "turned" into a paedophile when he had been incarcerated for so many years. Is that evidence of being "born" with those desires as he can't have had any access to the material for it to be "learnt" behaviour. What happened to the other one do you know? did he just drift into anonimity upon release? Thompson has apparently kept his nose clean. Interestingly, the people that worked with them believed that Thompson was the more likely to reoffend. He was the more belligerent, less remorseful, while Venables was openly distraught at what they'd done. I don't buy into the notion of evil kids though. When I was 8 or 9, me and my mates used to drop massive rocks off a bridge onto a busy carriageway. We had no concept of the fact that people could die.
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Jan 24, 2019 16:31:59 GMT
while Venables was openly distraught at what they'd done. Sounds like a good actor, then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 16:40:24 GMT
while Venables was openly distraught at what they'd done. Sounds like a good actor, then. Not really. Thompson didn't behave that way, he was far more belligerent. Crying didn't make a difference. I see no reason not to believe it was sincere. Are you one of those people who thinks they were evil? Like Voldermort?
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Jan 24, 2019 16:48:10 GMT
Not really. Thompson didn't behave that way, he was far more belligerent. Crying didn't make a difference. I see no reason not to believe it was sincere. Are you one of those people who thinks they were evil? Like Voldermort? What they did was evil. Whether they knew what they were doing, which would make them evil, I don't know, but I do know children can lie very convincingly. It's just an act, I've done it myself, just like you chucked bricks off bridges. It's the manipulator personality, rather than the usually less intelligent thug. The former nearly always wins.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 16:59:43 GMT
Not really. Thompson didn't behave that way, he was far more belligerent. Crying didn't make a difference. I see no reason not to believe it was sincere. Are you one of those people who thinks they were evil? Like Voldermort? What they did was evil. Whether they knew what they were doing, which would make them evil, I don't know, but I do know children can lie very convincingly. It's just an act, I've done it myself, just like you chucked bricks off bridges. It's the manipulator personality, rather than the usually less intelligent thug. The former nearly always wins. But why make the assumption it was an act? Unless you think they're innately bad children. I think they should have served more time but I don't buy the idea that they were evil. It seems as though the fact that they were children made people feel they were somehow more evil as a consequence. Which is an odd stance to take if you ask me.
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Jan 24, 2019 17:35:35 GMT
But why make the assumption it was an act? Unless you think they're innately bad children. "Sounds like" is not making an assumption, it is suggesting a possibility. And children lie a lot, so it is a reasonable suspicion to have. Innately bad? It's possible. Psychopaths are supposedly born that way due to the way the brain is formed per their genetics.
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Post by yggdrasil on Jan 25, 2019 16:59:36 GMT
What they did was evil. Whether they knew what they were doing, which would make them evil, I don't know, but I do know children can lie very convincingly. It's just an act, I've done it myself, just like you chucked bricks off bridges. It's the manipulator personality, rather than the usually less intelligent thug. The former nearly always wins. But why make the assumption it was an act? Unless you think they're innately bad children. I think they should have served more time but I don't buy the idea that they were evil. It seems as though the fact that they were children made people feel they were somehow more evil as a consequence. Which is an odd stance to take if you ask me. Same with old Myra Hinckley, although she was the lesser transgressor she was demonised more as it was thought a man could do those things but not a woman.
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Post by yggdrasil on Jan 25, 2019 17:02:33 GMT
But why make the assumption it was an act? Unless you think they're innately bad children. "Sounds like" is not making an assumption, it is suggesting a possibility. And children lie a lot, so it is a reasonable suspicion to have. Innately bad? It's possible. Psychopaths are supposedly born that way due to the way the brain is formed per their genetics. I think children are inherently duplicitous, but evil or bad? I would assume nurture would have more to do with that. I can't remember, did we learn anything about their parents/ upbringing at the time?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 18:09:35 GMT
"Sounds like" is not making an assumption, it is suggesting a possibility. And children lie a lot, so it is a reasonable suspicion to have. Innately bad? It's possible. Psychopaths are supposedly born that way due to the way the brain is formed per their genetics. I think children are inherently duplicitous, but evil or bad? I would assume nurture would have more to do with that. I can't remember, did we learn anything about their parents/ upbringing at the time? My understanding was that their upbringing was fairly normal, certainly nothing out of the ordinary, but this Guardian article suggests there was neglect but doesn't go into specifics. I don't buy the argument anyway. But it's more comforting to believe these kinds of things are motivated by abuse rather than being random tragedies (especially since Mary Bell's abuse established that narrative).
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Jan 25, 2019 20:01:20 GMT
@hux ,
"were said to have been"
That could mean that the writer of the article asked the guy at the next desk to say that they were loved but neglected, then he can rightfully say "they were said to have been loved but neglected".
It's bullshit phrases like that that writers use very deliberately to ensure they do not have to prove anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 20:11:44 GMT
@hux , "were said to have been" That could mean that the writer of the article asked the guy at the next desk to say that they were loved but neglected, then he can rightfully say "they were said to have been loved but neglected". It's bullshit phrases like that that writers use very deliberately to ensure they do not have to prove anything. That's why I said it didn't go into specifics. I've heard nothing concrete about them having especially bad childhoods. I'd say they had reasonably average childhoods.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 20:17:17 GMT
But why make the assumption it was an act? Unless you think they're innately bad children. I think they should have served more time but I don't buy the idea that they were evil. It seems as though the fact that they were children made people feel they were somehow more evil as a consequence. Which is an odd stance to take if you ask me. Same with old Myra Hinckley, although she was the lesser transgressor she was demonised more as it was thought a man could do those things but not a woman. That works both ways though. Women are often treated very leniently because society doesn't want to believe women can do such things. The best example of this is another killer given a new identity. Karla Homolka was convicted with her husband of raping and murdering three teenagers (including her own sister). The narrative was that she was also a victim, manipulated and controlled by an evil husband, and as such she gave evidence against him which reduced her own sentence. Then, not long after that deal was struck, they discovered video footage of the rape and murders and Homolka was VERY actively participating (and was even the actual killer of the girls).
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Jan 25, 2019 20:19:51 GMT
That's why I said it didn't go into specifics. I've heard nothing concrete about them having especially bad childhoods. I'd say they had reasonably average childhoods. Indeed. Both Venables and Thompson were said to have had reasonably average childhoods.
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