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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 23:45:05 GMT
The Israelis do not want that. Forcing it on them would be a violation of their right of self-determination. And it would mean that Jews are once again a minority everywhere in the world and a majority nowhere, as was the case during the Holocaust. Israelis will fight to the death to prevent returning to such a situation. Then you have to give the Palestinians the same right. And other groups. The UN tried to recognize the rights of both peoples back in 1947 with the Palestine partition plan. It would have created both a Jewish state and the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. It's a shame that the Arabs not only rejected it, which was their right, but also launched a war against the Jews. Even after the Arabs lost the war in 1949, they could have apologized, promised to never do it again, and asked that the partition plan be implemented. But they did nothing of the sort. Instead they maintained hostilities. Yasser Arafat could have a Palestinian state back in 2000, but he couldn't do it because it would have meant an end to the conflict. The Palestinians could have kept the peace when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Then the world community and some of Israel's own citizens would have told the Israeli government, "See, there is no danger to Israel in withdrawing from territory. Israel should do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank." But, unfortunately, the Palestinians DID NOT keep the peace. Instead, they voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. I realize you probably don't like reading these facts. But part of being a mature adult is accepting facts, even if you don't like them.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 23:51:29 GMT
Many Jews were still there when the Arabs invaded. The Arabs treated the Jews as dhimmis (third-class citizens), and some Jews decided to leave because of it. It wasn't part of any oppression, they didn't steal the land from Jews. Jews did steal it from the Canaanites though. They treated everyone who wasn't Muslim that way, it wasn't done to target Jews.
Well, sure, the Muslims treated the Christians poorly, too. But that was of little comfort to the Jews. Jews did steal it from the Canaanites though.That is by no means unanimous among archaeologists and historians. You have to be very careful when you use the Bible as a history book. One of the more widely-accepted theories is that the Hebrews themselves began as a sect of Canaanites.
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 27, 2024 0:33:16 GMT
Then you have to give the Palestinians the same right. And other groups. The UN tried to recognize the rights of both peoples back in 1947 with the Palestine partition plan. It would have created both a Jewish state and the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. It's a shame that the Arabs not only rejected it, which was their right, but also launched a war against the Jews. Even after the Arabs lost the war in 1949, they could have apologized, promised to never do it again, and asked that the partition plan be implemented. But they did nothing of the sort. Instead they maintained hostilities. Yasser Arafat could have a Palestinian state back in 2000, but he couldn't do it because it would have meant an end to the conflict. The Palestinians could have kept the peace when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Then the world community and some of Israel's own citizens would have told the Israeli government, "See, there is no danger to Israel in withdrawing from territory. Israel should do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank." But, unfortunately, the Palestinians DID NOT keep the peace. Instead, they voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. I realize you probably don't like reading these facts. But part of being a mature adult is accepting facts, even if you don't like them. They rejected it because they had it all. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 27, 2024 1:02:39 GMT
The UN tried to recognize the rights of both peoples back in 1947 with the Palestine partition plan. It would have created both a Jewish state and the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. It's a shame that the Arabs not only rejected it, which was their right, but also launched a war against the Jews. Even after the Arabs lost the war in 1949, they could have apologized, promised to never do it again, and asked that the partition plan be implemented. But they did nothing of the sort. Instead they maintained hostilities. Yasser Arafat could have a Palestinian state back in 2000, but he couldn't do it because it would have meant an end to the conflict. The Palestinians could have kept the peace when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Then the world community and some of Israel's own citizens would have told the Israeli government, "See, there is no danger to Israel in withdrawing from territory. Israel should do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank." But, unfortunately, the Palestinians DID NOT keep the peace. Instead, they voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. I realize you probably don't like reading these facts. But part of being a mature adult is accepting facts, even if you don't like them. They rejected it because they had it all. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too. They rejected it because they had it all.Wrong. As I said, the 1947 partition plan would have created the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. From WWI until 1948, the British controlled Palestine. Before that, it was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. Before that, it was controlled by the Mamluks. And so forth. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too.But that is not what the Jews did. Quite the contrary. Prior to 1947, the Jews only settled land they legally purchased, often at exorbitant prices. And the part of Palestine that would have become the Jewish state if the partition plan had been implemented had a Jewish majority. Furthermore, if the Arabs had not made war, the Arabs living in the new Jewish state would be able to keep their land. It was only when the Arabs launched the 1947 that the Jews captured land from the Arabs. The Arabs should have learned the lesson that war is not beneficial to them. But they have maintained the war for all that time, and so Palestinians are either under occupation on the West Bank, or suffering in the war in Gaza, or languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon. Maybe it's time for someone to tell them: "Your lives would improve immensely if you agreed to permanent peace with Israel."
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 27, 2024 1:05:40 GMT
They rejected it because they had it all. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too. They rejected it because they had it all.Wrong. As I said, the 1947 partition plan would have created the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. From WWI until 1948, the British controlled Palestine. Before that, it was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. Before that, it was controlled by the Mamluks. And so forth. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too.But that is not what the Jews did. Quite the contrary. Prior to 1947, the Jews only settled land they legally purchased, often at exorbitant prices. And the part of Palestine that would have become the Jewish state if the partition plan had been implemented had a Jewish majority. Furthermore, if the Arabs had not made war, the Arabs living in the new Jewish state would be able to keep their land. It was only when the Arabs launched the 1947 that the Jews captured land from the Arabs. The Arabs should have learned the lesson that war is not beneficial to them. But they have maintained the war for all that time, and so Palestinians are either under occupation on the West Bank, or suffering in the war in Gaza, or languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon. Maybe it's time for someone to tell them: "Your lives would improve immensely if you agreed to permanent peace with Israel." I think it's Israel that won't bake peace but they're very skillful at making themselves the victim while being the aggressor. Look at this past week, tons of conversation about a flag stick brushing someone's face, not much talk about the mass graves discovered.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 27, 2024 1:37:28 GMT
They rejected it because they had it all.Wrong. As I said, the 1947 partition plan would have created the first Palestinian Arab state in all of human history. From WWI until 1948, the British controlled Palestine. Before that, it was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. Before that, it was controlled by the Mamluks. And so forth. If someone came into your house saying "I used to live here a long time ago and some other people forced me out, now I want half your house" you'd refuse too.But that is not what the Jews did. Quite the contrary. Prior to 1947, the Jews only settled land they legally purchased, often at exorbitant prices. And the part of Palestine that would have become the Jewish state if the partition plan had been implemented had a Jewish majority. Furthermore, if the Arabs had not made war, the Arabs living in the new Jewish state would be able to keep their land. It was only when the Arabs launched the 1947 that the Jews captured land from the Arabs. The Arabs should have learned the lesson that war is not beneficial to them. But they have maintained the war for all that time, and so Palestinians are either under occupation on the West Bank, or suffering in the war in Gaza, or languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon. Maybe it's time for someone to tell them: "Your lives would improve immensely if you agreed to permanent peace with Israel." I think it's Israel that won't bake peace but they're very skillful at making themselves the victim while being the aggressor. Look at this past week, tons of conversation about a flag stick brushing someone's face, not much talk about the mass graves discovered. I think it's Israel that won't bake peace but they're very skillful at making themselves the victim while being the aggressor.
Rubbish. You really ought to review the history. In 1947, the UN passed a partition plan that would have divided Palestine into two countries, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arabs rejected it, as was their right. But then they also launched a war against the Jews. What exactly were the Jews supposed to do then, roll over and die? The Palestinians founded Fatah (the Palestine National Liberation Movement) in 1959 and the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964. Note that this was BEFORE Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank. What part of Palestine were those groups founded to "liberate"? Israel offered Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state in 2000, but he rejected the offer and started the second intifada, because the offer would have meant the end of the conflict. Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, and forced out all of the Jewish settlers there, which is what the Palestinians and the world community had been demanding for Gaza. But the result was a Hamas victory, the repeated blitzing of Israeli towns with rockets, and the October 7 massacre. Hamas has openly promised more such massacres, but Israel is the aggressor? Sure.
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Post by Swimm on Apr 27, 2024 3:24:51 GMT
I think when it comes to ownership after X number of years is who is there. The Jews deserve to stay. If they are defenseless then Leftists will see a real genocide. The Palestinians should be incorporated into Israel with equal rights, one state. And how do you think that would work out.
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 27, 2024 11:18:19 GMT
The Palestinians should be incorporated into Israel with equal rights, one state. And how do you think that would work out. Everyone would have equal rights.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Apr 27, 2024 11:50:10 GMT
I drove by a pro-Palestinian protest earlier today and saw one of the 20 or so protesters holding this sign. "Turtle Island", for those who may not know (I only learned about it a few days ago), is the name for North America in the creation mythology of some Native cultures. The question that immediately came to my mind is this: if you are an Arab, how the FUCK are you not an "occupier" in this land?Arabs get a special dispensation from being occupiers because of intersectionality, which is the belief that so-called "people of color" like Arabs and Native Americans are natural allies against all the evil white imperialists. That’s possibly how they rationalize the blatant hypocrisy. Me, I cannot think of a cogent reasoning for believing that an Arab or an African or an Indian or a Latin American who came here yesterday (metaphorically speaking) somehow has more right to be here than those whose ancestors have been here for four centuries. I briefly entertained an imaginary scenario where I would stop and tell the protester holding the sign that she’s an occupier too, but even in this fantasy I knew that somebody would record me and post my face all over social media and I would be cancelled. There is no arguing with these zealots excepts under the cover of anonymity.
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Post by Swimm on Apr 27, 2024 12:06:33 GMT
And how do you think that would work out. Everyone would have equal rights. I'm talking about reality. How would this work? 1. Israel is the only real progressive democracy in the middle east. A one State turns Jews in a minority. Can you guess what happens afterwards?2. Palestine does not have a good civil/human rights track record. Just like most other Muslim/Arab states
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Post by SciFive on Apr 27, 2024 12:08:49 GMT
Everyone would have equal rights. I'm talking about reality. How would this work? 1. Israel is the only real progressive democracy in the middle east. A one State turns Jews in a minority. Can you guess what happens afterwards?2. Palestine does not have a good civil/human rights track record. Just like most other Muslim/Arab states
+ The Pals would turn the "one state" into a Muslim theocracy like the other 21 Arab Muslim states already have.
There is no intent whatsoever from the Palestinians that they would (or could) create a secular western style democracy.
You're right.
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 27, 2024 12:39:12 GMT
Everyone would have equal rights. I'm talking about reality. How would this work? 1. Israel is the only real progressive democracy in the middle east. Israel is an ethnostate that oppresses it's non-Jews under it's military control, keeps most of them in occupied territories and refuses to allow them to go free but won't allow them citizenship. Same thing that happens to white people in the US. You tell me. [/span]+ [/quote] There has never been a Palestinian state so there is no track record.
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Post by Swimm on Apr 27, 2024 13:27:25 GMT
I'm talking about reality. How would this work? 1. Israel is the only real progressive democracy in the middle east Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens in Israel... This also still doesn't' refute that claim. That Israel is the most progressive country in the middle east. So..How does incorporating the Palestinians(making them the majority) who don't value equal/civil rights like Israel does magically make more equal rights for everyone? Same thing that happens to white people in the US. You tell me.
Not even in the same ball park. Are you afraid to give the answer? I mean you are advocating for a one state solution so you should at least have a inkling of foresight of how this would play out. Its funny how everyone who pushes the one-state solution suddenly becomes coy about what the end result would be. False en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_State_of_PalestineI'm sure Jewish women can't wait to be put under the boot www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-01591-4#:~:text=In%20April%202014%2C%20Palestine%20joined,UN%20General%20Assembly%2C%201979). I'm sure gays can't wait either Gay Palestinians are often arrested and tortured. According to Shaul Ganon of the Israeli-based gay rights group, Aguda, "The PA's usual excuse for persecuting gays is to label them collaborators--though I know of two cases in the last three years where people were tried explicitly for being homosexuals...It's now [since the intifada, when police increasingly began enforcing Islamic law] impossible to be an open gay in the P.A."[53][54][55][56I'm sure they are quite the enlightened group and they will certainly break the mold of every other backwards Muslim/arab state. I'm highly confident they will break mold when it comes to rights. What could go wrong.
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Post by ayatollah on Apr 27, 2024 13:50:31 GMT
Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens in Israel... But the Israeli government keeps most Arabs behind walls and they effectively have no rights. No, same ballpark. Two groups with a tortured history. The problem is you. You think a certain group of people are special and others do not deserve what they have, whether "white" or Palestinian or whoever. It's a remnant of the ancient fairy tale made up to justify conquest of Canaan, amazingly still lingering and causing problems today.
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Apr 27, 2024 14:19:40 GMT
I drove by a pro-Palestinian protest earlier today and saw one of the 20 or so protesters holding this sign. "Turtle Island", for those who may not know (I only learned about it a few days ago), is the name for North America in the creation mythology of some Native cultures. The question that immediately came to my mind is this: if you are an Arab, how the FUCK are you not an "occupier" in this land?Arabs get a special dispensation from being occupiers because of intersectionality, which is the belief that so-called "people of color" like Arabs and Native Americans are natural allies against all the evil white imperialists. The irony is that the Jews were in Palestine/Israel BEFORE the Arabs invaded, so Native Americans should have more affinity with the Jews. What a fucking lie. In 1947 there were many more Arabs in Palestine than Jews. Then Jews systematically slaughtered Arabs and ejected 800,000 of them. Scifi has many more rights throughout Palestine than the millions of Arabs whose families have livdd there for centuries. She can live in the west bank as she has done, protected by armed thugs happy to shoot Arabs who give her a hard time trespassing or burning houses or crops.
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