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Post by mikemonger on Apr 29, 2024 13:09:45 GMT
They did that as well as restore basic services and provide other forms of civilian aid. Infinately more than what the Israelis do. Is the area under full Israeli control? North Gaza is. |
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Post by papamihel on Apr 29, 2024 13:17:10 GMT
No one wants them as a state. So far only FATAH is seen as the "palestinian" "legitimate" "government". No one wants them as a state because Israel doesn't want them as a state. Of course we don't. They are not prepared to recognise us so any concession we make would simply strengthen the position of people who honestly say they want us all dead and gone. But that's not about that. They don't want a state because they are not a nation or an ethnicity. It's every clan for themselves. The current Palestinian authority is getting free money and next to zero oversight and any time they are caught doing something bad - like failing to hold an election or persecuting their own people - they can blame it on "occupation". Once they a state, they would be expected to be held accountable. Who needs that? |
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Post by mikemonger on Apr 29, 2024 13:33:46 GMT
No one wants them as a state because Israel doesn't want them as a state. Of course we don't. They are not prepared to recognise us so any concession we make would simply strengthen the position of people who honestly say they want us all dead and gone. But that's not about that. They don't want a state because they are not a nation or an ethnicity. It's every clan for themselves. The current Palestinian authority is getting free money and next to zero oversight and any time they are caught doing something bad - like failing to hold an election or persecuting their own people - they can blame it on "occupation". Once they a state, they would be expected to be held accountable. Who needs that? Actually it's because if Gaza is declared a state, the West Bank Palestinians will want in, and while Israel may be willing to let Gaza go, it has every intent to ultimately annex the entirety of the West Bank. None of which changes the point of the exchange...if Israel can declare an area is a state or not, it means Israel controls the area. |
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Post by damngumby on Apr 29, 2024 21:25:08 GMT
Of course we don't. They are not prepared to recognise us so any concession we make would simply strengthen the position of people who honestly say they want us all dead and gone. But that's not about that. They don't want a state because they are not a nation or an ethnicity. It's every clan for themselves. The current Palestinian authority is getting free money and next to zero oversight and any time they are caught doing something bad - like failing to hold an election or persecuting their own people - they can blame it on "occupation". Once they a state, they would be expected to be held accountable. Who needs that? Actually it's because if Gaza is declared a state, the West Bank Palestinians will want in, and while Israel may be willing to let Gaza go, it has every intent to ultimately annex the entirety of the West Bank.None of which changes the point of the exchange...if Israel can declare an area is a state or not, it means Israel controls the area. Why do Pro-Pals lie through their teeth? I mean, they just make shit up. |
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Post by mikemonger on Apr 29, 2024 21:38:40 GMT
Actually it's because if Gaza is declared a state, the West Bank Palestinians will want in, and while Israel may be willing to let Gaza go, it has every intent to ultimately annex the entirety of the West Bank.None of which changes the point of the exchange...if Israel can declare an area is a state or not, it means Israel controls the area. Why do Pro-Pals lie through their teeth? I mean, they just make shit up. How about you look at a current map of the West Bank with settlements and no-go zones for Palestinians and then get back to me...lol |
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Post by slowcomingwarbird on Apr 29, 2024 21:46:28 GMT
Lol One of the favorite arguments of the Holy Israel types is "well the Germans and Japanese accepted peace blah blah blah". What was one of the biggest contributors to that? Aid. Lots and lots of aid. When the Allies moved into a destroyed town they didn't force the people there out for condos for their own people. They restored services and rebuilt the town. AFTER the war was over, not during! The allies didn't airdrop food to the Germans and the Japanese while their soldiers were busy killing ours! Perhaps you just don't understand because the rules of engagement have changed since the Vietnam War. You are not allowed to destroy hospitals, schools, or kill civilians, there are no conditions to those rules. Those 3 rules are absolute and there are no exceptions, there is no wiggle room. If you break any of those 3 rules you are committing war crimes. There is always a clear difference between civilians and enemy combatants, don't ever forget that. |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Apr 30, 2024 0:08:17 GMT
Marsatax knows the truth. You dont obviously. Hamas won the only election Israel permitted the Palestinians, on a platform of reducing Fatahs corruption and restarting Fatahs failed peace negotiations. Fatah then expelled Hamas from the west bank but they took over the Gaza government. Hamas changed theirboriginal constitution from their original Muslim Brotherhood one that called forbdestruction of Israel, and tried for several years to stop rocket attacks by Islamic Jihad, PFLP and others. While criticising Hamas for their brutality in suppressing rockets, Israel blamed Hamas for all rocket attacks. Even in 2008 attacking the Gaza police force directly. Israel panicked in the 2010s when sanctions prevented Iran from funding the Hamas government and got Qatar and Saudi Arabia to take over till Iran could renew funding. Israel knew Iranian funding was never primarily weapons but schools, hospitals, power, rebuilding which Israel happily destroyed regularly to try to bankrupt Iran. The new Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, just as the old one does. www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-fullExcerpts 1. Its [Hamas’s] goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. 2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity. 17. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. 18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination. 19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse. 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. 27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital. So what is wrong with a single state of Palestine, this time a democracy where all peoples have thd vote, instead of the current situation, where a minority vote, hold 2 million in a prison anc another 5 milion under military occupztion while illegally annexing their land? Hamas's charter looks a damn sight more humane than the current Israeli strategy of every few years, invading Gaza to kill a few thousand, and protecting illegal settlers while they kill Palestinians and burn out their orchards and homes. Lets deflect again shall we? I'll start for you. But...but... Iran |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Apr 30, 2024 0:13:46 GMT
No one wants them as a state because Israel doesn't want them as a state. Of course we don't. They are not prepared to recognise us so any concession we make would simply strengthen the position of people who honestly say they want us all dead and gone. But that's not about that. They don't want a state because they are not a nation or an ethnicity. It's every clan for themselves. The current Palestinian authority is getting free money and next to zero oversight and any time they are caught doing something bad - like failing to hold an election or persecuting their own people - they can blame it on "occupation". Once they a state, they would be expected to be held accountable. Who needs that? Of course you woulc equate the behaviour of a subject people under a brutal occupation force, with their freedom if you let them have some. Lets keep that going. When Jews fled Europe after WW2 they did what the Nazis taught them. No quarter given. A 10 for 1 reprisal rate for dead citizens and holding masses by the millions in prison. Looks like you learnt well your lessons. I can see how you would expect your oppressed peoples to do the same when freed. |
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Post by marsatax on Apr 30, 2024 2:36:30 GMT
The new Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, just as the old one does. www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-fullExcerpts 1. Its [Hamas’s] goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. 2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity. 17. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. 18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination. 19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse. 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. 27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital. So what is wrong with a single state of Palestine, this time a democracy where all peoples have thd vote, instead of the current situation, where a minority vote, hold 2 million in a prison anc another 5 milion under military occupztion while illegally annexing their land? Hamas's charter looks a damn sight more humane than the current Israeli strategy of every few years, invading Gaza to kill a few thousand, and protecting illegal settlers while they kill Palestinians and burn out their orchards and homes. Lets deflect again shall we? I'll start for you. But...but... Iran
If the 20th century has shown anything, it is that Jews have enemies, and that Jews are unsafe unless they have a haven and the ability to defend themselves. The "one-state solution" would mean the end of Israel, and returning the Jews to being a minority everywhere in the world and a majority nowhere, as was the case during the Holocaust. Jews are determined never to return to that situation. this time a democracy where all peoples have thd vote
There is no successful free democracy in the Arab world. See freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2024So it is very unlikely that Palestinians would be able to create a successful free democracy. The Palestinians had elections, and voted in the Nazi-like and Genocidal gang Hamas. Also, prior to the creation of Israel, the Arabs (they were not called Palestinians yet), repeatedly launched murderous attacks on, and massacres of, Jews. They did it in 1834, 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1938. In a majority Arab country, who would stop the Palestinians for continuing this tradition? Hamas's charter looks a damn sight more humane than the current Israeli strategy
Hamas openly calls for Genocide of the Jewish people. If you consider that "humane", there is no hope for you. avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp"The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet has said: The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." |
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Post by damngumby on Apr 30, 2024 9:51:51 GMT
Why do Pro-Pals lie through their teeth? I mean, they just make shit up. How about you look at a current map of the West Bank with settlements and no-go zones for Palestinians and then get back to me...lol That map says the have a looong way to go before “annexing the entirety of the West Bank”. Nor does it indicate that they intend to do so. You just made that up. You lied. It’s kinda like when you knuckleheads say that Israel is committing “genocide” against the Palestinians. The slowest genocide in history. |
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Post by damngumby on Apr 30, 2024 10:00:16 GMT
The new Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, just as the old one does. www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-fullExcerpts 1. Its [Hamas’s] goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. 2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity. 17. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. 18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination. 19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse. 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. 27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital. So what is wrong with a single state of Palestine, this time a democracy where all peoples have thd vote, instead of the current situation, where a minority vote, hold 2 million in a prison anc another 5 milion under military occupztion while illegally annexing their land? Hamas's charter looks a damn sight more humane than the current Israeli strategy of every few years, invading Gaza to kill a few thousand, and protecting illegal settlers while they kill Palestinians and burn out their orchards and homes. Lets deflect again shall we? I'll start for you. But...but... Iran are deflecting. You claimed that Hamas removed the call for the destruction of Israel from their charter. They obviously did not. You lied. Like all pro-Pals are inclined to do. |
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Post by damngumby on Apr 30, 2024 10:09:33 GMT
AFTER the war was over, not during! The allies didn't airdrop food to the Germans and the Japanese while their soldiers were busy killing ours! Perhaps you just don't understand because the rules of engagement have changed since the Vietnam War. You are not allowed to destroy hospitals, schools, or kill civilians, there are no conditions to those rules. Those 3 rules are absolute and there are no exceptions, there is no wiggle room. If you break any of those 3 rules you are committing war crimes. There is always a clear difference between civilians and enemy combatants, don't ever forget that. Did you just make all that up? You can’t attack a hospital with a howitzer on the roof? The war crime is committed by the ones who put the weapon there. Have you been asleep the last few decades, where the ability to distinguish between a civilian and an enemy combatant has become increasingly difficult? “Clear difference” ![[eyeroll]](http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/TYpDCPXPWyMKZsuBDttK.gif) |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Apr 30, 2024 11:44:33 GMT
So what is wrong with a single state of Palestine, this time a democracy where all peoples have thd vote, instead of the current situation, where a minority vote, hold 2 million in a prison anc another 5 milion under military occupztion while illegally annexing their land? Hamas's charter looks a damn sight more humane than the current Israeli strategy of every few years, invading Gaza to kill a few thousand, and protecting illegal settlers while they kill Palestinians and burn out their orchards and homes. Lets deflect again shall we? I'll start for you. But...but... Iran are deflecting. You claimed that Hamas removed the call for the destruction of Israel from their charter. They obviously did not. You lied. Like all pro-Pals are inclined to do. I think I said Hamas removed death to Jews from their charter, that dated from their beginnings as part of the Muslim Brotherhood. The point is that Hamas substantially changed their charter around 2005 when they won the PA election so as to more easily negotiate a peace treaty. Israel was never interested. The gun works better for Jewish interests, the proximate cause of Gazan radical action in 2023. |
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Post by mikemonger on Apr 30, 2024 12:26:24 GMT
How about you look at a current map of the West Bank with settlements and no-go zones for Palestinians and then get back to me...lol That map says the have a looong way to go before “annexing the entirety of the West Bank”. Nor does it indicate that they intend to do so. You just made that up. You lied. It’s kinda like when you knuckleheads say that Israel is committing “genocide” against the Palestinians. The slowest genocide in history. Is that why you didn't bother providing a map which shoes ythst Israel already owns over half of it? Because it shoes it has a long way to go before it owns the entirety? Cool story bro. |
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Post by marsatax on Apr 30, 2024 15:54:10 GMT
You are deflecting. You claimed that Hamas removed the call for the destruction of Israel from their charter. They obviously did not. You lied. Like all pro-Pals are inclined to do. I think I said Hamas removed death to Jews from their charter, that dated from their beginnings as part of the Muslim Brotherhood. The point is that Hamas substantially changed their charter around 2005 when they won the PA election so as to more easily negotiate a peace treaty. Israel was never interested. The gun works better for Jewish interests, the proximate cause of Gazan radical action in 2023. The new charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, just as the old one does, as I showed above. So of course Israel is not interested; they are not interested in allowing their country to be obliterated. |
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