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Post by The Herald Erjen on Apr 16, 2023 16:18:00 GMT
It makes no sense. To you. Period. No I can't explain why Christ prayed to himself. On occasion I've talked to myself, and I can't explain that one either. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best. The Trinity is a dumb concept. And it's found nowhere in the Bible. You've been duped by Rome. We'll find out in the end who was right and who was wrong.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Apr 16, 2023 17:37:26 GMT
It says "I and the Father are one." One in purpose. It's like if I say "I and my wife are one". You're parsing words.
Christ prays to God the Father. Why would he pray to himself? The Trinity makes no sense and was a contortion created later, not in the New Testament.
Christ - The Second Person Of the Trinity - Prays to the Father, the First Person Of the Trinity. Here's another place, that is slightly more affirming: Gospel according to St. John chapter 14, verses 8 - 9. Here, Christ SPECIFICALLY Identifies Himself with the Father. St. Philip asks Our Lord to show them (Philip & the other Apostles)the Father, & Our Lord Jesus Tells him that He Is the Father. In the Gospel according to St. John chapter 8, Christ Says "I Am," & the Pharisees try to stone Him to Death. Why? Because in Saying "I Am," Christ was Saying that He Is God.Christ - The Second Person Of the Trinity - Prays to the Father, the First Person Of the Trinity.
Clusium, that's schizophrenic. If you want to say Christ was an avatar of God as a man, then do so. But that's not what the Trinitarians claim. They claim a father can be his own son. That's not rational. The Bible must follow logic. And it does. Nowhere does it say that Father & Son are the same being.
Yes, Christ is "I Am". No one is saying otherwise. But he is the Son of the original "I Am".
Jesus tells Saint Philip that if he has seen Him, he has seen the Father. Again, Christ would not play games. He is speaking in metaphors. Why do you think He doesn't just say flatly "I am the Father"? He doesn't. He never does. The point is that for non-Jews they do not go direct to the Father. God the Son is whom they address.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Apr 16, 2023 18:58:34 GMT
According to Genesis, there were other people around during the early days, for example, Cain's wife, so Yahweh did not create all the people, there was another god at work. The god of the Canaanites was El, the father of all gods. Maybe El created the Earth all the people. Maybe Yahweh was the snake in the garden and the story of creation was appropriated by him. When Jesus tells the Pharisees their father is the devil, maybe it's because Yahweh is the devil and Jews worship a false god. That would explain why Yahweh is so evil in the OT and why he punishes the Hebrews. It would explain why Jesus came to overthrow Yahweh. It would mean that Christians are worshipping the wrong god. That's what the Talmud would have us think. How quickly this thread became a thread about whether the Trinity is authentic. Nice job, Gameboy.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on Apr 16, 2023 20:48:35 GMT
According to Genesis, there were other people around during the early days, for example, Cain's wife, so Yahweh did not create all the people, there was another god at work. The god of the Canaanites was El, the father of all gods. Maybe El created the Earth all the people. Maybe Yahweh was the snake in the garden and the story of creation was appropriated by him. When Jesus tells the Pharisees their father is the devil, maybe it's because Yahweh is the devil and Jews worship a false god. That would explain why Yahweh is so evil in the OT and why he punishes the Hebrews. It would explain why Jesus came to overthrow Yahweh. It would mean that Christians are worshipping the wrong god. That's what the Talmud would have us think. How quickly this thread became a thread about whether the Trinity is authentic. Nice job, Gameboy. Threads thread in different directions. That's why they're called threads.
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Post by clusium on Apr 16, 2023 23:57:52 GMT
Christ - The Second Person Of the Trinity - Prays to the Father, the First Person Of the Trinity. Here's another place, that is slightly more affirming: Gospel according to St. John chapter 14, verses 8 - 9. Here, Christ SPECIFICALLY Identifies Himself with the Father. St. Philip asks Our Lord to show them (Philip & the other Apostles)the Father, & Our Lord Jesus Tells him that He Is the Father. In the Gospel according to St. John chapter 8, Christ Says "I Am," & the Pharisees try to stone Him to Death. Why? Because in Saying "I Am," Christ was Saying that He Is God.Christ - The Second Person Of the Trinity - Prays to the Father, the First Person Of the Trinity.
Clusium, that's schizophrenic. If you want to say Christ was an avatar of God as a man, then do so. But that's not what the Trinitarians claim. They claim a father can be his own son. That's not rational. The Bible must follow logic. And it does. Nowhere does it say that Father & Son are the same being.
Yes, Christ is "I Am". No one is saying otherwise. But he is the Son of the original "I Am".
Jesus tells Saint Philip that if he has seen Him, he has seen the Father. Again, Christ would not play games. He is speaking in metaphors. Why do you think He doesn't just say flatly "I am the Father"? He doesn't. He never does. The point is that for non-Jews they do not go direct to the Father. God the Son is whom they address.
Your problem is, Prince Myshkin, you equate God with His Own Creation. The same with all other groups which deny the Trinity. God Is DIFFERENT from His Creation. What is impossible for all of us, is not Impossible with HIM. St. Philip wasn't asking for metaphors. St. Philip really wanted to see the Almighty with his own eyes. Christ Told him, that he (St. Philip) already has, ever since he became one of His (Christ's) Apostles.
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 0:28:33 GMT
Jesus doesn’t actually extend the “covenant” to the gentiles. Neither does Paul and he is the founder of a new religion, that is no longer Jewish in character. Jesus was preaching how to be a truly righteous person at the end of the world as this was a popular theme in some Jewish sects for several decades before Jesus…like the Essenes. This is arguable as Jesus said he didn't come to overthrow the law. It was Paul that unilaterally decided it didn't apply to Gentiles.
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 0:45:43 GMT
Jesus’ message was all the 600+ laws the priests, rabbis, and scribes said must be followed in order to be a righteous Jew were empty if they are only being followed out of pious routine and prideful show. He even pushed the Commandments further by demanding his followers put Love or Agape ahead of the Law. I'm more or less an atheist. But I love religion and theology.
The concept of the Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Sorry, a Father cannot be his own Son. They are separate and distinct entities. I don't care how one contorts it. The whole idea is somewhat pornographic.
It's very clear that Christian theology teaches the Father was the stern god of the Hebrews and the Jews. And the Son expanded the covenant to the Gentiles. No, Christ was not the God of the Old Testament.
Christianity is a polytheistic religion of three Gods. Then you have the Devil running around too fucking things up. I don't believe in the Trinity, but some argue that YHWH was the father in the sense that he filled a human being with his spirit, so he is figuratively the father. If you view it from the mindset of a believer, it makes sense and sidesteps the issue of a virgin birth. It doesn't matter if Mary was a virgin, the spirit of God is still God. He is the father in the sense of having created the entity called Jesus. Some argue that explaining it in terms of a father - son relationship is to make it easier for 1st Century Jews to understand. And others believe the father of Jesus is a different (unnamed) god entirely which is what this thread was hoping to explore before it got sidetracked into another boring discussion of the Trinity which is a 3rd century invention to escape accusations of polytheism.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 17, 2023 2:41:46 GMT
Jesus doesn’t actually extend the “covenant” to the gentiles. Neither does Paul and he is the founder of a new religion, that is no longer Jewish in character. Jesus was preaching how to be a truly righteous person at the end of the world as this was a popular theme in some Jewish sects for several decades before Jesus…like the Essenes. This is arguable as Jesus said he didn't come to overthrow the law. It was Paul that unilaterally decided it didn't apply to Gentiles. And Paul wasn’t Jesus, we just have his word Jesus appeared to him in dreams.
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 3:11:44 GMT
This is arguable as Jesus said he didn't come to overthrow the law. It was Paul that unilaterally decided it didn't apply to Gentiles. And Paul wasn’t Jesus, we just have his word Jesus appeared to him in dreams. Obviously, Paul wasn't Jesus. Or was he? <queue Twilight Zone theme> But nevertheless, Paul's teachings were in contradiction to Jesus' assertion he had not come to overthrow the law. It's also arguable the Jesus was speaking to Jews and the law doesn't apply to Gentiles because they had no covenant with God. Only Jesus could say but he's as quiet as the dead.
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 3:18:23 GMT
...God Is DIFFERENT from His Creation. Some philosophers have argued that God can't be separate from his creation, that everything created by God is of God. Man was made in God's image, we look like God, made from material God created of himself, we would be gods if allowed to eat from the Tree of Life.
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Post by clusium on Apr 17, 2023 3:34:13 GMT
...God Is DIFFERENT from His Creation. Some philosophers have argued that God can't be separate from his creation, that everything created by God is of God. Man was made in God's image, we look like God, made from material God created of himself, we would be gods if allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. That is pantheism, not monotheism.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 17, 2023 3:48:04 GMT
...God Is DIFFERENT from His Creation. Some philosophers have argued that God can't be separate from his creation, that everything created by God is of God. Man was made in God's image, we look like God, made from material God created of himself, we would be gods if allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. How could a being who created the universe as we know it be concerned with such pettiness as barely intelligent life on a less than a speck of creation?
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 3:57:44 GMT
Some philosophers have argued that God can't be separate from his creation, that everything created by God is of God. Man was made in God's image, we look like God, made from material God created of himself, we would be gods if allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. That is pantheism, not monotheism. The discussion is hopelessly derailed so I was off on a tangent myself about whether god can be separate from his creation. You said no, I was playing devil's advocate by mentioning that some philosophers have argued to the contrary.
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Post by Meseia on Apr 17, 2023 4:09:30 GMT
Some philosophers have argued that God can't be separate from his creation, that everything created by God is of God. Man was made in God's image, we look like God, made from material God created of himself, we would be gods if allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. How could a being who created the universe as we know it be concerned with such pettiness as barely intelligent life on a less than a speck of creation? I'm talking about being spiritually and materially connected. Maybe there is a better way of phrasing it. But I believe the idea is that God created everything from himself so we must all be a small part of God. This idea is popular among people who like to believe that human consciousness are fragments of God's consciousness. That blowing life into Adam is an allegory for giving part of his spirit to humans, much as he imparted his spirit into Jesus. Paul wrote in Romans that all things are of God.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Apr 17, 2023 4:29:19 GMT
How could a being who created the universe as we know it be concerned with such pettiness as barely intelligent life on a less than a speck of creation? I'm talking about being spiritually and materially connected. Maybe there is a better way of phrasing it. But I believe the idea is that God created everything from himself so we must all be a small part of God. This idea is popular among people who like to believe that human consciousness are fragments of God's consciousness. That blowing life into Adam is an allegory for giving part of his spirit to humans, much as he imparted his spirit into Jesus. Paul wrote in Romans that all things are of God. You’re a pantheist then.
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