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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 15:54:53 GMT
Religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. Church - a building used for public Christian worship. Religious activities generally need some infrastructure to be conducted. For this reason, there generally exist religion-supporting organizations, which are some form of organization that manage the upkeep of places of worship, such as mosques, churches, temples, synagogues, chapels and other buildings or meeting places.the payment of salaries to religious leaders, such as Roman Catholic priests, Hindu priests, Protestant ministers, imams and rabbis. In addition, such are organizations usually have other responsibilities, such as the formation, nomination or appointment of religious leaders, the establishment of a corpus of doctrine, the disciplining of leaders and followers with respect to religious law, and the determination of qualification for membership. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_organizationBuddhism has no or churches, nor gods, is it not a religion? No one joins it. We have Buddhist temple organized like churches now, but that’s a western influence. That was not the point. I was raised in the Catholic Church. I no longer belong because I got tired of all the BS and corruption. But I credit my religious upbringing and education for my spiritual condition which brings me much happiness, comfort and real world benefits. My religion makes me happy. The Catholic Church does not. See the difference?
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 16:13:32 GMT
Buddhism has no or churches, nor gods, is it not a religion? No one joins it. We have Buddhist temple organized like churches now, but that’s a western influence. That was not the point. I was raised in the Catholic Church. I no longer belong because I got tired of all the BS and corruption. But I credit my religious upbringing and education for my spiritual condition which brings me much happiness, comfort and real world benefits. My religion makes me happy. The Catholic Church does not. See the difference? Your faith is still dependent upon the Church which is the religion. The structure of the religion is The Body of Christ, which is the church. The religion can survive without the church buildings. He is the Vine and you are the Branches. If you still worship Jesus as a divine Lord and Savior and as the Third person of the Trinity, then you never left the Church, you just do not worship together with the rest of the Body.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 16:19:08 GMT
That was not the point. I was raised in the Catholic Church. I no longer belong because I got tired of all the BS and corruption. But I credit my religious upbringing and education for my spiritual condition which brings me much happiness, comfort and real world benefits. My religion makes me happy. The Catholic Church does not. See the difference? Your faith is still dependent upon the Church which is the religion. The structure of the religion is The Body of Christ, which is the church. The religion can survive without the church buildings. He is the Vine and you are the Branches. If you still worship Jesus as a divine Lord and Savior and as the Third person of the Trinity, then you never left the Church, you just do not worship together with the rest of the Body. I disagree. The Pope and/or the priests don't tell me what to do, think or believe. I don't give money to the church. I think for myself.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 16:28:18 GMT
Your faith is still dependent upon the Church which is the religion. The structure of the religion is The Body of Christ, which is the church. The religion can survive without the church buildings. He is the Vine and you are the Branches. If you still worship Jesus as a divine Lord and Savior and as the Third person of the Trinity, then you never left the Church, you just do not worship together with the rest of the Body. I disagree. The Pope and/or the priests don't tell me what to do, think or believe. I don't give money to the church. I think for myself. The leaders are not the Church, and you and the leaders together are the Church. In a sense is no number of members, it’s a seamless garment, just like you’re not a collection of body parts independent of each other. And your faith is your ticket in. If you believe in Christ, you are member of his Body, therefore a member of the Church.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 16:30:45 GMT
I disagree. The Pope and/or the priests don't tell me what to do, think or believe. I don't give money to the church. I think for myself. The leaders are not the Church, and you and the leaders together are the Church. In a sense is no number of members, it’s a seamless garment, just like you’re not a collection of body parts independent of each other. And your faith is your ticket in. If you believe in Christ, you are member of his Body, therefore a member of the Church. I disagree. I don't mentor or counsel the church. We don't communicate. If the Catholic Church disappeared, it would have no affect on me. And vice versa.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 16:37:49 GMT
The leaders are not the Church, and you and the leaders together are the Church. In a sense is no number of members, it’s a seamless garment, just like you’re not a collection of body parts independent of each other. And your faith is your ticket in. If you believe in Christ, you are member of his Body, therefore a member of the Church. I disagree. I don't mentor or counsel the church. We don't communicate. If the Catholic Church disappeared, it would have no affect on me. And vice versa. I’m sure, but without the thing you reject, you would not be whatever you consider yourself now. You owe that debt to the church at least. Do you think God has accepted your intellectual separation from his Body? You may reject or not accept your biological mother as your spiritual mother, but she is still your mother.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 16:44:34 GMT
I disagree. I don't mentor or counsel the church. We don't communicate. If the Catholic Church disappeared, it would have no affect on me. And vice versa. I’m sure, but without the thing you reject, you would not be whatever you consider yourself now. You owe that debt to the church at least. Do you think God has accepted your intellectual separation from his Body? You may reject or not accept your biological mother as your spiritual mother, but she is still your mother. This would be an example of one of the good things churches do in general. And in my case, specifically the Catholic Church. I never suffered during, or because of the education I got from the Catholic Church. Or provided by the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church is not religion. It's a human beaurocratic institution. Two different things Athiests who engage in condemnation of religion often conflate. Blaming the car when the driver makes a mistake.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 17:10:46 GMT
I’m sure, but without the thing you reject, you would not be whatever you consider yourself now. You owe that debt to the church at least. Do you think God has accepted your intellectual separation from his Body? You may reject or not accept your biological mother as your spiritual mother, but she is still your mother. This would be an example of one of the good things churches do in general. And in my case, specifically the Catholic Church. I never suffered during or because of the education I got from the Catholic Church. Or provided by the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church is not religion. It's a human beaurocratic institution. Two different things Athiests who engage in condemnation of religion often conflate. Blaming the car when the driver makes a mistake. The bureaucratic institution invented the religion and the Church that is a part of the Body of Christ because they said so. I’m not talking about the denominations inside the Body like the Catholic Church, the Baptist churches, Methodists, etc, but also the church of movieliker, which has one worshipper. However, you can’t separate yourself from the Body if you still believe what you’ve listed above. From an outside perspective, you’re a simple a Christian who does not go to church anymore because you don’t like the preacher, but you’ve not formally rejected the core teachings in anyway.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 17:24:45 GMT
This would be an example of one of the good things churches do in general. And in my case, specifically the Catholic Church. I never suffered during or because of the education I got from the Catholic Church. Or provided by the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church is not religion. It's a human beaurocratic institution. Two different things Athiests who engage in condemnation of religion often conflate. Blaming the car when the driver makes a mistake. The bureaucratic institution invented the religion and the Church that is a part of the Body of Christ because they said so. I’m not talking about the denominations inside the Body like the Catholic Church, the Baptist churches, Methodists, etc, but also the church of movieliker, which has one worshipper. However, you can’t separate yourself from the Body if you still believe what you’ve listed above. From an outside perspective, you’re a simple a Christian who does not go to church anymore because you don’t like the preacher, but you’ve not formally rejected the core teachings in anyway. I don't understand the point you are trying to make I am one of millions of Christians in the world. But that is different than the Catholic Church, the Vatican, the Pope, or any other representation of the human institution that is the Catholic Church. All of the accusations you and others have leveled against religion are humans making bad decisions in the name of religion. Not the religion itself. You and others never differentiate between the two. If you don't like something the Catholic Church has done. Or something someone has done in the name of religion, don't blame religion. Blame the humans who made that decision.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 18:16:04 GMT
The bureaucratic institution invented the religion and the Church that is a part of the Body of Christ because they said so. I’m not talking about the denominations inside the Body like the Catholic Church, the Baptist churches, Methodists, etc, but also the church of movieliker, which has one worshipper. However, you can’t separate yourself from the Body if you still believe what you’ve listed above. From an outside perspective, you’re a simple a Christian who does not go to church anymore because you don’t like the preacher, but you’ve not formally rejected the core teachings in anyway. I don't understand the point you are trying to make I am one of millions of Christians in the world. But that is different than the Catholic Church, the Vatican, the Pope, or any other representation of the human institution that is the Catholic Church. All of the accusations you and others have leveled against religion are humans making bad decisions in the name of religion. Not the religion itself. You and others never differentiate between the two. If you don't like something the Catholic Church has done. Or something someone has done in the name of religion, don't blame religion. Blame the humans who made that decision. There is no need to be defensive. A critique is not a criticism. This conversation could stimulate some ideas you never thought some point later. You don’t need to defend Christianity, I’m being objective about it. I am not a Christian at all, even though I formally was. Yet I still refer to the Bible as the West’s central ethnical doctrine and Christianity as the religion that had shaped Western character the most. I have no philosophical objections to Christianity, or even cultural, but I do object to its metaphysical revelatory claims or that it has jurisdiction over me in any way. There is no proof anything in the Bible is anything other than myth or hearsay. If a person can transcend the Bible’s prophetorial self-claims, it is a magnificent work of cultural literature that still grips the planet. That in itself is awe inspiring, but the superstition and magic are the vehicles that sustains it. You have a certain spiritual path specific to Christianity, I don’t fault you at all, all humans are free to choose their way, since one way is as valid as the other. But you want it both ways. You like the nice parts of being a Christian, if yet none of the bad parts of being one. One of bad parts is believing your unsaved loved ones are destined for Hell save God’s mercy. That is the teaching in every church. The very path you are own was mapped for you centuries ago by the very institution you say you are not a part of. There many Christian versions, but they all agree there is only One Church and Christ sits at its head in the Kingdom of Heaven. If you don’t believe in that, then you may as well stop identifying as a Christian, because you are not one really.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 18:36:22 GMT
I don't understand the point you are trying to make I am one of millions of Christians in the world. But that is different than the Catholic Church, the Vatican, the Pope, or any other representation of the human institution that is the Catholic Church. All of the accusations you and others have leveled against religion are humans making bad decisions in the name of religion. Not the religion itself. You and others never differentiate between the two. If you don't like something the Catholic Church has done. Or something someone has done in the name of religion, don't blame religion. Blame the humans who made that decision. There is no need to be defensive. A critique is not a criticism. This conversation could stimulate some ideas you never thought some point later. You don’t need to defend Christianity, I’m being objective about it. I am not a Christian at all, even though I formally was. Yet I still refer to the Bible as the West’s central ethnical doctrine and Christianity as the religion that had shaped Western character the most. I have no philosophical objections to Christianity, or even cultural, but I do object to its metaphysical revelatory claims or that it has jurisdiction over me in any way. There is no proof anything in the Bible is anything other than myth or hearsay. If a person can transcend the Bible’s prophetorial self-claims, it is a magnificent work of cultural literature that still grips the planet. That in itself is awe inspiring, but the superstition and magic are the vehicles that sustains it. You have a certain spiritual path specific to Christianity, I don’t fault you at all, all humans are free to choose their way, since one way is as valid as the other. But you want it both ways. You like the nice parts of being a Christian, if yet none of the bad parts of being one. One of bad parts is believing your unsaved loved ones are destined for Hell save God’s mercy. That is the teaching in every church. The very path you are own was mapped for you centuries ago by the very institution you say you are not a part of. There many Christian versions, but they all agree there is only One Church and Christ sits at its head in the Kingdom of Heaven. If you don’t believe in that, then you may as well stop identifying as a Christian, because you are not one really. What's wrong with the statement I emboldened in your quoted post??
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 19:03:52 GMT
There is no need to be defensive. A critique is not a criticism. This conversation could stimulate some ideas you never thought some point later. You don’t need to defend Christianity, I’m being objective about it. I am not a Christian at all, even though I formally was. Yet I still refer to the Bible as the West’s central ethnical doctrine and Christianity as the religion that had shaped Western character the most. I have no philosophical objections to Christianity, or even cultural, but I do object to its metaphysical revelatory claims or that it has jurisdiction over me in any way. There is no proof anything in the Bible is anything other than myth or hearsay. If a person can transcend the Bible’s prophetorial self-claims, it is a magnificent work of cultural literature that still grips the planet. That in itself is awe inspiring, but the superstition and magic are the vehicles that sustains it. You have a certain spiritual path specific to Christianity, I don’t fault you at all, all humans are free to choose their way, since one way is as valid as the other. But you want it both ways. You like the nice parts of being a Christian, if yet none of the bad parts of being one. One of bad parts is believing your unsaved loved ones are destined for Hell save God’s mercy. That is the teaching in every church. The very path you are own was mapped for you centuries ago by the very institution you say you are not a part of. There many Christian versions, but they all agree there is only One Church and Christ sits at its head in the Kingdom of Heaven. If you don’t believe in that, then you may as well stop identifying as a Christian, because you are not one really. What's wrong with the statement I emboldened in your quoted post?? It’s neither right nor wrong, because there is no proof there is God’s mercy. Sadly, many people do believe in an unmerciful Hell because it is the anchor point of their faith. If God is merciful, then why does he need a Hell. The sole message of Christianity is no one with a sin on their soul may enter the Kingdom of Heaven without salvation through Christ and his church. The church is the medium for that salvation. Even the Bible, the central document which doctrine comes, is required. Being totally ignorant of it is no excuse. In your path you assume God’s mercy, but this is anathema to the central doctrine of Christ’s sacrifice. You are to have faith in Jesus’ name as your Savior, not in God’s mercy. If it is only God’s mercy, then there’s no need for Jesus to save people. You may have already done that in your heart, but once you did, you signed for the other stuff like there is a Hell because you asked to be saved from it. It’s always best to read the fine print before signing up for anything.
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 19:50:35 GMT
What's wrong with the statement I emboldened in your quoted post?? It’s neither right nor wrong, because there is no proof there is God’s mercy. Sadly, many people do believe in an unmerciful Hell because it is the anchor point of their faith. If God is merciful, then why does he need a Hell. The sole message of Christianity is no one with a sin on their soul may enter the Kingdom of Heaven without salvation through Christ and his church. The church is the medium for that salvation. Even the Bible, the central document which doctrine comes, is required. Being totally ignorant of it is no excuse. In your path you assume God’s mercy, but this is anathema to the central doctrine of Christ’s sacrifice. You are to have faith in Jesus’ name as your Savior, not in God’s mercy. If it is only God’s mercy, then there’s no need for Jesus to save people. You may have already done that in your heart, but once you did, you signed for the other stuff like there is a Hell because you asked to be saved from it. It’s always best to read the fine print before signing up for anything. Once again, the fear factor (fear of going to Hell) is a good thing because fear is a powerful motivator.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Oct 5, 2022 20:16:58 GMT
It’s neither right nor wrong, because there is no proof there is God’s mercy. Sadly, many people do believe in an unmerciful Hell because it is the anchor point of their faith. If God is merciful, then why does he need a Hell. The sole message of Christianity is no one with a sin on their soul may enter the Kingdom of Heaven without salvation through Christ and his church. The church is the medium for that salvation. Even the Bible, the central document which doctrine comes, is required. Being totally ignorant of it is no excuse. In your path you assume God’s mercy, but this is anathema to the central doctrine of Christ’s sacrifice. You are to have faith in Jesus’ name as your Savior, not in God’s mercy. If it is only God’s mercy, then there’s no need for Jesus to save people. You may have already done that in your heart, but once you did, you signed for the other stuff like there is a Hell because you asked to be saved from it. It’s always best to read the fine print before signing up for anything. Once again, the fear factor (fear of going to Hell) is a good thing because fear is a powerful motivator. Do you believe you could end up in Hell?
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Post by movieliker on Oct 5, 2022 20:51:32 GMT
Once again, the fear factor (fear of going to Hell) is a good thing because fear is a powerful motivator. Do you believe you could end up in Hell? Of course. Anything is possible.
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