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Post by Lux on Aug 30, 2023 8:13:34 GMT
Of course Tony was asking if he knew Bucky his best friend killed his parents how that is confusing to anyone is beyond comprehension. And the look on Tony's face says it all you're awful at reading body language. Why would Tony ask if he knew his parents were carrying super soldier serums? Hilarious it's like Sam knowing Eric killed your parents but you ask Sam if he knew they were carrying Jehovah's witness leaflets prior to their deaths 😂😂why the fuck would he care about SS serums? Which is why Cap responded with "I didn't know it was him" to clarify his position. Why do you keep ignoring this? The topic is about you thinking the question was vague not what Captain America said.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 15:59:08 GMT
Nah, because for that to work we go back to the conundrum I mentioned: That Cap would have needed to lie to Tony's face with zero hesitation and zero prompting.If you want to believe that he's not only capable of doing that but chose to lie instead of simply staying quiet or omitting the truth then I won't force you. But it seriously doesn't make sense based on what we know from Cap. Besides, Tony wasn't that angry at Cap just because of what Cap said but because he was already in an emotional turmoil after what he just watched. The question did prompt him to dodge it. Besides he was pissed at Rogers for pretty much the rest of his life. Before it was mostly ideological but this made it personal.
Steve Rogers is not an idiot. He knows what Iron Man was asking. Perhaps in a panic he thought he was protecting Bucky, but Stark knew it was BS and called it out. The Steve Rogers I know compromised where he could but when he couldn't he didn't. Peggy's funeral wisdom as shared by Sharon Carter.
Later in the movie he writes a letter where he states and I quote:
"I know I hurt you, Tony. I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry. Hopefully one day you can understand."
Here's the whole thing:
I think it's consistent that he apologized. He even wrote him a letter. That's how you did it in the 1930's.
And in that letter, Cap apologized for not telling Tony about his parents. He didn't apologize for not telling him about Bucky or about how he protected Bucky. It's still pretty consistent with what I'm saying. But let me try to convince you from another angle. Let's pretend you're Cap. For the sake of my example, let's pretend you knew about Hydra assassinating Tony's parents from reports you read in SHIELD but you never saw the actual footage and had no idea that it was Bucky who killed them. Then you watch this footage with Tony and Tony asks you in a clearly emotional state, "Did you know??" How would you respond if you were Cap?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 16:31:40 GMT
The question did prompt him to dodge it. Besides he was pissed at Rogers for pretty much the rest of his life. Before it was mostly ideological but this made it personal.
Steve Rogers is not an idiot. He knows what Iron Man was asking. Perhaps in a panic he thought he was protecting Bucky, but Stark knew it was BS and called it out. The Steve Rogers I know compromised where he could but when he couldn't he didn't. Peggy's funeral wisdom as shared by Sharon Carter.
Later in the movie he writes a letter where he states and I quote:
"I know I hurt you, Tony. I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry. Hopefully one day you can understand."
Here's the whole thing:
I think it's consistent that he apologized. He even wrote him a letter. That's how you did it in the 1930's.
And in that letter, Cap apologized for not telling Tony about his parents. He didn't apologize for not telling him about Bucky or about how he protected Bucky. It's still pretty consistent with what I'm saying. But let me try to convince you from another angle. Let's pretend you're Cap. For the sake of my example, let's pretend you knew about Hydra assassinating Tony's parents from reports you read in SHIELD but you never saw the actual footage and had no idea that it was Bucky who killed them. Then you watch this footage with Tony and Tony asks you in a clearly emotional state, "Did you know??" How would you respond if you were Cap? If I knew it was Bucky I'd say yes. It's consistent with instinctively lying to protect a friend, and or jumping on a grenade to save the rest. He did just try to be ambiguous and say he didn't know it was Bucky specifically. He's unlikely to turn around and say wait, maybe I didn't know anything after all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 17:51:27 GMT
Cap’s knowledge of the event likely begins and ends with what Zola showed him in the bunker. He only knew Hydra took out Tony’s parents. From this he can only guess that Bucky was involved, maybe directly, indirectly, or possibly not at all. So I think it’s safe to assume that Cap technically didn’t know it was Bucky, and that statement is true. But when pressed Cap realizes in that moment that his answer is a cop out and not telling Tony about the event or the possibility that it was Bucky was still a betrayal. This is fully in character because it’s Cap’s honor and conscience that compels him to say yes. Another character may have continued to plead innocent on the basis that they didn’t know for sure it was Bucky. I then think Tony, not realizing the nuance of Cap’s reply, assumed Cap knew the full truth.
just my reading of it.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 20:04:01 GMT
And in that letter, Cap apologized for not telling Tony about his parents. He didn't apologize for not telling him about Bucky or about how he protected Bucky. It's still pretty consistent with what I'm saying. But let me try to convince you from another angle. Let's pretend you're Cap. For the sake of my example, let's pretend you knew about Hydra assassinating Tony's parents from reports you read in SHIELD but you never saw the actual footage and had no idea that it was Bucky who killed them. Then you watch this footage with Tony and Tony asks you in a clearly emotional state, "Did you know??" How would you respond if you were Cap? If I knew it was Bucky I'd say yes. It's consistent with instinctively lying to protect a friend, and or jumping on a grenade to save the rest. He did just try to be ambiguous and say he didn't know it was Bucky specifically. He's unlikely to turn around and say wait, maybe I didn't know anything after all. Nah, you're changing the stipulations. I said "if you didn't know that it was Bucky", how would you respond? You knew Tony's parents were assassinated but you didn't know it was Bucky who did it. Tony asks you, "Did you know?" How do you answer?
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 20:06:24 GMT
Cap’s knowledge of the event likely begins and ends with what Zola showed him in the bunker. He only knew Hydra took out Tony’s parents. From this he can only guess that Bucky was involved, maybe directly, indirectly, or possibly not at all. So I think it’s safe to assume that Cap technically didn’t know it was Bucky, and that statement is true. But when pressed Cap realizes in that moment that his answer is a cop out and not telling Tony about the event or the possibility that it was Bucky was still a betrayal. This is fully in character because it’s Cap’s honor and conscience that compels him to say yes. Another character may have continued to plead innocent on the basis that they didn’t know for sure it was Bucky. I then think Tony, not realizing the nuance of Cap’s reply, assumed Cap knew the full truth. just my reading of it. I think by that point, Tony was in too much emotional turmoil that the only answer he would have accepted was yes or no. Cap tried to give him a more reasonable answer but he didn't accept it. So Cap just went with a "yes" as that's more truthful than him saying "no", since Cap knew most of the details even if he didn't know all the details.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 20:16:41 GMT
If I knew it was Bucky I'd say yes. It's consistent with instinctively lying to protect a friend, and or jumping on a grenade to save the rest. He did just try to be ambiguous and say he didn't know it was Bucky specifically. He's unlikely to turn around and say wait, maybe I didn't know anything after all. Nah, you're changing the stipulations. I said "if you didn't know that it was Bucky", how would you respond? You knew Tony's parents were assassinated but you didn't know it was Bucky who did it. Tony asks you, "Did you know?" How do you answer? If I didn't know it was Bucky I'd say no. The first time. Wouldn't you?
He would have nothing to lose by telling the truth if he didn't know.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 20:53:54 GMT
Nah, you're changing the stipulations. I said "if you didn't know that it was Bucky", how would you respond? You knew Tony's parents were assassinated but you didn't know it was Bucky who did it. Tony asks you, "Did you know?" How do you answer? If I didn't know it was Bucky I'd say no. The first time. Wouldn't you?
He would have nothing to lose by telling the truth if he didn't know.
Well no, because while you didn't know it was Bucky you did know that Tony's parents were assassinated by Hydra. So when Tony asks, "Did you know?", then it's not an easy yes or no answer. Yes, I knew that Hydra killed your parents No, I didn't know it was Bucky. See the issue? If you just outright and say no, then you'd by lying since you knew that Hydra killed his parents. If you said yes, you'd still be lying because you didn't know it was Bucky who killed them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 21:49:06 GMT
Cap’s knowledge of the event likely begins and ends with what Zola showed him in the bunker. He only knew Hydra took out Tony’s parents. From this he can only guess that Bucky was involved, maybe directly, indirectly, or possibly not at all. So I think it’s safe to assume that Cap technically didn’t know it was Bucky, and that statement is true. But when pressed Cap realizes in that moment that his answer is a cop out and not telling Tony about the event or the possibility that it was Bucky was still a betrayal. This is fully in character because it’s Cap’s honor and conscience that compels him to say yes. Another character may have continued to plead innocent on the basis that they didn’t know for sure it was Bucky. I then think Tony, not realizing the nuance of Cap’s reply, assumed Cap knew the full truth. just my reading of it. I think by that point, Tony was in too much emotional turmoil that the only answer he would have accepted was yes or no. Cap tried to give him a more reasonable answer but he didn't accept it. So Cap just went with a "yes" as that's more truthful than him saying "no", since Cap knew most of the details even if he didn't know all the details. I agree
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 23:26:10 GMT
If I didn't know it was Bucky I'd say no. The first time. Wouldn't you?
He would have nothing to lose by telling the truth if he didn't know.
Well no, because while you didn't know it was Bucky you did know that Tony's parents were assassinated by Hydra. So when Tony asks, "Did you know?", then it's not an easy yes or no answer. Yes, I knew that Hydra killed your parents No, I didn't know it was Bucky. See the issue? If you just outright and say no, then you'd by lying since you knew that Hydra killed his parents. If you said yes, you'd still be lying because you didn't know it was Bucky who killed them. Even revisiting the clip it's still obvious Rogers knew exactly what Iron Man asked and he answered accordingly. "Did you know?" is not that open to interpretation. It was a yes or no question.
It reads more like:
Yes, I knew hydra killed your parents but I didn't know it was him.
Yes, I did know it was him.
With what you know about Rogers, do you think he would make a false confession? That seems even more out of character than withholding hurtful information to spare a friend. He left the shield behind because Iron Man said he didn't deserve it. Why else would he leave it behind if he didn't feel Iron Man had a point?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 23:33:59 GMT
Cap’s knowledge of the event likely begins and ends with what Zola showed him in the bunker. He only knew Hydra took out Tony’s parents. From this he can only guess that Bucky was involved, maybe directly, indirectly, or possibly not at all. So I think it’s safe to assume that Cap technically didn’t know it was Bucky, and that statement is true. But when pressed Cap realizes in that moment that his answer is a cop out and not telling Tony about the event or the possibility that it was Bucky was still a betrayal. This is fully in character because it’s Cap’s honor and conscience that compels him to say yes. Another character may have continued to plead innocent on the basis that they didn’t know for sure it was Bucky. I then think Tony, not realizing the nuance of Cap’s reply, assumed Cap knew the full truth. just my reading of it. I think by that point, Tony was in too much emotional turmoil that the only answer he would have accepted was yes or no. Cap tried to give him a more reasonable answer but he didn't accept it. So Cap just went with a "yes" as that's more truthful than him saying "no", since Cap knew most of the details even if he didn't know all the details. This needs addressing too because you said he went with yes because it's more truthful than saying no. More truthful than saying no...
If it's the truth you stick with it. You don't falsely confess to something to placate someone's feelings. That's insane.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 23:53:52 GMT
Well no, because while you didn't know it was Bucky you did know that Tony's parents were assassinated by Hydra. So when Tony asks, "Did you know?", then it's not an easy yes or no answer. Yes, I knew that Hydra killed your parents No, I didn't know it was Bucky. See the issue? If you just outright and say no, then you'd by lying since you knew that Hydra killed his parents. If you said yes, you'd still be lying because you didn't know it was Bucky who killed them. Even revisiting the clip it's still obvious Rogers knew exactly what Iron Man asked and he answered accordingly. "Did you know?" is not that open to interpretation. It was a yes or no question.
It reads more like:
Yes, I knew hydra killed your parents but I didn't know it was him.
Yes, I did know it was him.
With what you know about Rogers, do you think he would make a false confession? That seems even more out of character than withholding hurtful information to spare a friend. He left the shield behind because Iron Man said he didn't deserve it. Why else would he leave it behind if he didn't feel Iron Man had a point?
You're still avoiding my question though. What would you answer to Tony's question if you knew that Hydra killed his parents but didn't know it was Bucky? You say it was a yes or no question, so would you have said yes then because you knew about his parents but not about Bucky?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 0:04:32 GMT
Even revisiting the clip it's still obvious Rogers knew exactly what Iron Man asked and he answered accordingly. "Did you know?" is not that open to interpretation. It was a yes or no question.
It reads more like:
Yes, I knew hydra killed your parents but I didn't know it was him.
Yes, I did know it was him.
With what you know about Rogers, do you think he would make a false confession? That seems even more out of character than withholding hurtful information to spare a friend. He left the shield behind because Iron Man said he didn't deserve it. Why else would he leave it behind if he didn't feel Iron Man had a point?
You're still avoiding my question though. What would you answer to Tony's question if you knew that Hydra killed his parents but didn't know it was Bucky? You say it was a yes or no question, so would you have said yes then because you knew about his parents but not about Bucky? At the risk of being beaten up in the parking lot, if I knew it was Bucky then my answer to both questions would have been yes.
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Post by politicidal1 on Sept 5, 2023 16:44:10 GMT
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Post by politicidal1 on Sept 6, 2023 17:23:06 GMT
More possible plot details.
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