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Post by skaathar on Aug 28, 2023 21:25:25 GMT
Again, I have to disagree. Stark's question was vague. "Did you know?" Cap answered very clearly: Yes he did know but he didn't know it was Bucky. Cap answered yes because he actually knew about Tony's parents getting killed. That's what the "yes" was answering. But he also stated very clearly that he didn't know it was Bucky. That's the only interpretation that makes sense. Because for your version to make sense we would need to accept that Cap lied point blank to Tony's face with zero hesitation and without a 2nd thought, and that’s so out of character for Cap that it just won't add up. It doesn't mean Cap's bad, just more complex than he leads on. I certainly agree that it doesn't seem to fit with Cap's character but therein lies the proof. He didn't lie to his face. He owned it when Iron Man essentially gave him no other choice but to answer yes or no.
I don't mind telling you it came across as no other possible way to me when I saw it. Perhaps more importantly though, if the counterargument is Cap wouldn't do that because he's not that type of dude, well, isn't that essentially saying he wouldn't because you have faith that he wouldn't?
No, he actually did lie to Tony's face, at least for your version to be true. In your version, Cap knew that Bucky killed Tony's parents. So when Tony asked him if he knew and Cap responded with "I didn't know it was him", then he blatantly lied to Tony. The worst part is that he didn't even need to say that. He could have simply said "Yes" and that meant he was just omitting the truth, not lying. But to specifically say he didn't know it was Bucky even if (according to you) he actually knew? That would have been Cap boldly lying with a straight face, with zero hesitation or 2nd thoughts. That just doesn't add up to what we know of Cap. The more logical explanation would be as I said, Cap knew about Tony's parents but didn't know it was Bucky who killed them. I mean, that's pretty much exactly what he said, why would we need to assume otherwise?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 21:36:50 GMT
It doesn't mean Cap's bad, just more complex than he leads on. I certainly agree that it doesn't seem to fit with Cap's character but therein lies the proof. He didn't lie to his face. He owned it when Iron Man essentially gave him no other choice but to answer yes or no.
I don't mind telling you it came across as no other possible way to me when I saw it. Perhaps more importantly though, if the counterargument is Cap wouldn't do that because he's not that type of dude, well, isn't that essentially saying he wouldn't because you have faith that he wouldn't?
No, he actually did lie to Tony's face, at least for your version to be true. In your version, Cap knew that Bucky killed Tony's parents. So when Tony asked him if he knew and Cap responded with "I didn't know it was him", then he blatantly lied to Tony.The worst part is that he didn't even need to say that. He could have simply said "Yes" and that meant he was just omitting the truth, not lying. But to specifically say he didn't know it was Bucky even if (according to you) he actually knew? That would have been Cap boldly lying with a straight face, with zero hesitation or 2nd thoughts. That just doesn't add up to what we know of Cap. The more logical explanation would be as I said, Cap knew about Tony's parents but didn't know it was Bucky who killed them. I mean, that's pretty much exactly what he said, why would we need to assume otherwise? Actually yeah, you're right. I was overlooking the subtlety of saying he didn't know it was Bucky specifically, so I take it back. He did lie to his face. I was thinking of not mentioning it before as lying by omission but in that moment he reflexively lied. By answering he didn't know it was him he really, really subtly changed the question, but Stark knew exactly what he was asking so he pressed it, made sure the question could only be understood as did you know Bucky killed my parents.
I thought it was straight exposition, truly. If Cap didn't know it was Bucky specifically then why not say no?
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Post by skaathar on Aug 28, 2023 23:24:25 GMT
No, he actually did lie to Tony's face, at least for your version to be true. In your version, Cap knew that Bucky killed Tony's parents. So when Tony asked him if he knew and Cap responded with "I didn't know it was him", then he blatantly lied to Tony.The worst part is that he didn't even need to say that. He could have simply said "Yes" and that meant he was just omitting the truth, not lying. But to specifically say he didn't know it was Bucky even if (according to you) he actually knew? That would have been Cap boldly lying with a straight face, with zero hesitation or 2nd thoughts. That just doesn't add up to what we know of Cap. The more logical explanation would be as I said, Cap knew about Tony's parents but didn't know it was Bucky who killed them. I mean, that's pretty much exactly what he said, why would we need to assume otherwise? Actually yeah, you're right. I was overlooking the subtlety of saying he didn't know it was Bucky specifically, so I take it back. He did lie to his face. I was thinking of not mentioning it before as lying by omission but in that moment he reflexively lied. By answering he didn't know it was him he really, really subtly changed the question, but Stark knew exactly what he was asking so he pressed it, made sure the question could only be understood as did you know Bucky killed my parents.
I thought it was straight exposition, truly. If Cap didn't know it was Bucky specifically then why not say no?
Well like I said in the beginning, Tony's question was a bit vague. He asked Cap if he knew (as in did he know about what happened to his parents) and Cap tried to deflect by saying he didn't know it was Bucky. Tony then pressed harder (because Cap didn't really answer the question) and asked again if he knew, to which Cap answered yes. Which is why what I'm saying is that the only way I can make that make sense, is if Cap was answering the bigger question which is: Did he know what happened to Tony's parents? So he said yes, as in he knew what happened to Tony's parents but he clarified that he didn't know it was Bucky. To be honest, it was a fairly weak part in the writing. I assume they wrote it that way to encourage people to doubt and question who was in the right, but it ended up being confusing as well. Better writing would have made it clear what they were talking about while still leaving it to the audience to determine who was in the right.
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Post by Lux on Aug 29, 2023 15:57:16 GMT
Actually yeah, you're right. I was overlooking the subtlety of saying he didn't know it was Bucky specifically, so I take it back. He did lie to his face. I was thinking of not mentioning it before as lying by omission but in that moment he reflexively lied. By answering he didn't know it was him he really, really subtly changed the question, but Stark knew exactly what he was asking so he pressed it, made sure the question could only be understood as did you know Bucky killed my parents.
I thought it was straight exposition, truly. If Cap didn't know it was Bucky specifically then why not say no?
Well like I said in the beginning, Tony's question was a bit vague. He asked Cap if he knew (as in did he know about what happened to his parents) and Cap tried to deflect by saying he didn't know it was Bucky. Tony then pressed harder (because Cap didn't really answer the question) and asked again if he knew, to which Cap answered yes. Which is why what I'm saying is that the only way I can make that make sense, is if Cap was answering the bigger question which is: Did he know what happened to Tony's parents? So he said yes, as in he knew what happened to Tony's parents but he clarified that he didn't know it was Bucky. To be honest, it was a fairly weak part in the writing. I assume they wrote it that way to encourage people to doubt and question who was in the right, but it ended up being confusing as well. Better writing would have made it clear what they were talking about while still leaving it to the audience to determine who was in the right. How was it vague? Tony saw his parents murdered by Captain America's best friend then asked him if he knew being his best friend who's been fighting Hydra for hundreds of years about the Hydra assassination. Not sure what was vague in that.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 29, 2023 19:08:25 GMT
Well like I said in the beginning, Tony's question was a bit vague. He asked Cap if he knew (as in did he know about what happened to his parents) and Cap tried to deflect by saying he didn't know it was Bucky. Tony then pressed harder (because Cap didn't really answer the question) and asked again if he knew, to which Cap answered yes. Which is why what I'm saying is that the only way I can make that make sense, is if Cap was answering the bigger question which is: Did he know what happened to Tony's parents? So he said yes, as in he knew what happened to Tony's parents but he clarified that he didn't know it was Bucky. To be honest, it was a fairly weak part in the writing. I assume they wrote it that way to encourage people to doubt and question who was in the right, but it ended up being confusing as well. Better writing would have made it clear what they were talking about while still leaving it to the audience to determine who was in the right. How was it vague? Tony saw his parents murdered by Captain America's best friend then asked him if he knew being his best friend who's been fighting Hydra for hundreds of years about the Hydra assassination. Not sure what was vague in that. Tony only asked Cap, "Did you know?" To which one could ask, did he know what exactly? That Tony's parents didn't die in a car crash? That Tony's parents were not just killed but assassinated? That Tony's parents were killed by Hydra? That Tony's parents were carrying SS serums? That Bucky was the one who killed Tony's parents? Seeing as there were so many items that could require clarification, then yes, Tony's question was vague.
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Post by Lux on Aug 29, 2023 19:27:33 GMT
How was it vague? Tony saw his parents murdered by Captain America's best friend then asked him if he knew being his best friend who's been fighting Hydra for hundreds of years about the Hydra assassination. Not sure what was vague in that. Tony only asked Cap, "Did you know?" To which one could ask, did he know what exactly? That Tony's parents didn't die in a car crash? That Tony's parents were not just killed but assassinated? That Tony's parents were killed by Hydra? That Tony's parents were carrying SS serums? That Bucky was the one who killed Tony's parents? Seeing as there were so many items that could require clarification, then yes, Tony's question was vague. Bucky kills Stark's parents on video, Captain America is Bucky's oldest friend who knows everything about him, Tony who has just seen the video asked if he knew he killed his parents, not that complicated. Tony wasn't asking him if he knew of a good car insurance company for his parents' car.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 29, 2023 20:25:30 GMT
Tony only asked Cap, "Did you know?" To which one could ask, did he know what exactly? That Tony's parents didn't die in a car crash? That Tony's parents were not just killed but assassinated? That Tony's parents were killed by Hydra? That Tony's parents were carrying SS serums? That Bucky was the one who killed Tony's parents? Seeing as there were so many items that could require clarification, then yes, Tony's question was vague. Bucky kills Stark's parents on video, Captain America is Bucky's oldest friend who knows everything about him, Tony who has just seen the video asked if he knew he killed his parents, not that complicated. Tony wasn't asking him if he knew of a good car insurance company for his parents' car. No, that's not what Tony asked. Watch the vid, nowhere in there does Tony say, "Did you know that Bucky killed my parents?". Besides, Cap already answered that particular question when he said, "I didn't know it was him".
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Post by Lux on Aug 29, 2023 20:54:07 GMT
Bucky kills Stark's parents on video, Captain America is Bucky's oldest friend who knows everything about him, Tony who has just seen the video asked if he knew he killed his parents, not that complicated. Tony wasn't asking him if he knew of a good car insurance company for his parents' car. No, that's not what Tony asked. Watch the vid, nowhere in there does Tony say, "Did you know that Bucky killed my parents?". Besides, Cap already answered that particular question when he said, "I didn't know it was him". What else could Tony possibly be asking that he knew about? Astrology?
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Post by skaathar on Aug 29, 2023 21:09:58 GMT
No, that's not what Tony asked. Watch the vid, nowhere in there does Tony say, "Did you know that Bucky killed my parents?". Besides, Cap already answered that particular question when he said, "I didn't know it was him". What else could Tony possibly be asking that he knew about? Astrology? You really need to learn to read my posts before responding to me. I already answered this. Here, I'll post it again:
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Post by Lux on Aug 29, 2023 21:40:09 GMT
What else could Tony possibly be asking that he knew about? Astrology? You really need to learn to read my posts before responding to me. I already answered this. Here, I'll post it again: That was a rhetorical question. Just not understanding how that question could leave anyone confused.
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Post by Lux on Aug 29, 2023 21:52:14 GMT
What else could Tony possibly be asking that he knew about? Astrology? You really need to learn to read my posts before responding to me. I already answered this. Here, I'll post it again: Of course Tony was asking if he knew Bucky his best friend killed his parents how that is confusing to anyone is beyond comprehension. And the look on Tony's face says it all you're awful at reading body language. Why would Tony ask if he knew his parents were carrying super soldier serums? Hilarious it's like Sam knowing Eric killed your parents but you ask Sam if he knew they were carrying Jehovah's witness leaflets prior to their deaths 😂😂why the fuck would he care about SS serums?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2023 23:07:29 GMT
Actually yeah, you're right. I was overlooking the subtlety of saying he didn't know it was Bucky specifically, so I take it back. He did lie to his face. I was thinking of not mentioning it before as lying by omission but in that moment he reflexively lied. By answering he didn't know it was him he really, really subtly changed the question, but Stark knew exactly what he was asking so he pressed it, made sure the question could only be understood as did you know Bucky killed my parents.
I thought it was straight exposition, truly. If Cap didn't know it was Bucky specifically then why not say no?
Well like I said in the beginning, Tony's question was a bit vague. He asked Cap if he knew (as in did he know about what happened to his parents) and Cap tried to deflect by saying he didn't know it was Bucky. Tony then pressed harder (because Cap didn't really answer the question) and asked again if he knew, to which Cap answered yes. Which is why what I'm saying is that the only way I can make that make sense, is if Cap was answering the bigger question which is: Did he know what happened to Tony's parents? So he said yes, as in he knew what happened to Tony's parents but he clarified that he didn't know it was Bucky. To be honest, it was a fairly weak part in the writing. I assume they wrote it that way to encourage people to doubt and question who was in the right, but it ended up being confusing as well. Better writing would have made it clear what they were talking about while still leaving it to the audience to determine who was in the right. Appreciate the response but in the politest possible way I'm not convinced. I don't think it the question was vague or that it was meant to create debate. It makes no sense for Iron Man to be as angry as he was at Rogers without it.
I read at least one perspective suggesting perhaps Cap put it together at that moment and decided to own it, but that is the question he answered. The notion that Rogers felt driven to acknowledge a conclusion he had just reached has won me over just a bit, but the bigger question, the only question, is if Cap knew about what they all just saw on the tape. To that he answered yes.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 4:19:25 GMT
Well like I said in the beginning, Tony's question was a bit vague. He asked Cap if he knew (as in did he know about what happened to his parents) and Cap tried to deflect by saying he didn't know it was Bucky. Tony then pressed harder (because Cap didn't really answer the question) and asked again if he knew, to which Cap answered yes. Which is why what I'm saying is that the only way I can make that make sense, is if Cap was answering the bigger question which is: Did he know what happened to Tony's parents? So he said yes, as in he knew what happened to Tony's parents but he clarified that he didn't know it was Bucky. To be honest, it was a fairly weak part in the writing. I assume they wrote it that way to encourage people to doubt and question who was in the right, but it ended up being confusing as well. Better writing would have made it clear what they were talking about while still leaving it to the audience to determine who was in the right. Appreciate the response but in the politest possible way I'm not convinced. I don't think it the question was vague or that it was meant to create debate. It makes no sense for Iron Man to be as angry as he was at Rogers without it.
I read at least one perspective suggesting perhaps Cap put it together at that moment and decided to own it, but that is the question he answered. The notion that Rogers felt driven to acknowledge a conclusion he had just reached has won me over just a bit, but the bigger question, the only question, is if Cap knew about what they all just saw on the tape. To that he answered yes.
Nah, because for that to work we go back to the conundrum I mentioned: That Cap would have needed to lie to Tony's face with zero hesitation and zero prompting. If you want to believe that he's not only capable of doing that but chose to lie instead of simply staying quiet or omitting the truth then I won't force you. But it seriously doesn't make sense based on what we know from Cap. Besides, Tony wasn't that angry at Cap just because of what Cap said but because he was already in an emotional turmoil after what he just watched.
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Post by skaathar on Aug 30, 2023 4:20:28 GMT
You really need to learn to read my posts before responding to me. I already answered this. Here, I'll post it again: Of course Tony was asking if he knew Bucky his best friend killed his parents how that is confusing to anyone is beyond comprehension. And the look on Tony's face says it all you're awful at reading body language. Why would Tony ask if he knew his parents were carrying super soldier serums? Hilarious it's like Sam knowing Eric killed your parents but you ask Sam if he knew they were carrying Jehovah's witness leaflets prior to their deaths 😂😂why the fuck would he care about SS serums? Which is why Cap responded with "I didn't know it was him" to clarify his position. Why do you keep ignoring this?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 4:58:49 GMT
Appreciate the response but in the politest possible way I'm not convinced. I don't think it the question was vague or that it was meant to create debate. It makes no sense for Iron Man to be as angry as he was at Rogers without it.
I read at least one perspective suggesting perhaps Cap put it together at that moment and decided to own it, but that is the question he answered. The notion that Rogers felt driven to acknowledge a conclusion he had just reached has won me over just a bit, but the bigger question, the only question, is if Cap knew about what they all just saw on the tape. To that he answered yes.
Nah, because for that to work we go back to the conundrum I mentioned: That Cap would have needed to lie to Tony's face with zero hesitation and zero prompting.If you want to believe that he's not only capable of doing that but chose to lie instead of simply staying quiet or omitting the truth then I won't force you. But it seriously doesn't make sense based on what we know from Cap. Besides, Tony wasn't that angry at Cap just because of what Cap said but because he was already in an emotional turmoil after what he just watched. The question did prompt him to dodge it. Besides he was pissed at Rogers for pretty much the rest of his life. Before it was mostly ideological but this made it personal.
Steve Rogers is not an idiot. He knows what Iron Man was asking. Perhaps in a panic he thought he was protecting Bucky, but Stark knew it was BS and called it out. The Steve Rogers I know compromised where he could but when he couldn't he didn't. Peggy's funeral wisdom as shared by Sharon Carter.
Later in the movie he writes a letter where he states and I quote:
"I know I hurt you, Tony. I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry. Hopefully one day you can understand."
Here's the whole thing:
I think it's consistent that he apologized. He even wrote him a letter. That's how you did it in the 1930's.
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