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Post by Meseia on May 11, 2023 8:01:24 GMT
Dr Robyn Walsh challenges Paul's credibility.
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Post by yggdrasil on May 11, 2023 10:12:38 GMT
Most definitely not and Christ (if you believe in the existence of that person) would have been appalled by "Pauline" Christianity.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 11, 2023 14:27:13 GMT
I don’t necessarily think he was lying, though that doesn’t mean he was taking instructions from the risen Jesus. Even so, he’s the closest source we have before 63AD when Rome leveled Jerusalem in response to the Jewish Revolt, which the messianic zealots started in hopes of bring on the long prophesied Messiah.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 11, 2023 14:56:44 GMT
Most definitely not and Christ (if you believe in the existence of that person) would have been appalled by "Pauline" Christianity. Maybe not. The church as it came into being probably would make no sense to him. Just going by Paul’s letters, he also came to believe in Jesus’ messianic apocalypticism that had been in existence in Jewish fundamentalism for decades prior to the 1st century. The Essenes are an example of a large movement the Greeks annihilated probably with The Temple’s blessing. The Jerusalem authorities had been fighting this burning end times, cosmic war eschatology that was fueling the zealots and rebels and a miss-reading of Isiah. It is basically the same as the millennialism being preached by fundamentalist Christians today, but with an update. Per Mark, Jesus is executed for claiming to be King of Jews, which is what this Messiah would be according to “the scripture.” Paul was converted after possibly working as an agent for authorities and started having visions from Jesus himself who had made the same apocalyptic claims. Keep in mind this sect was in existence before Paul came along, but he’s the first, not just literate, but well educated convert to articulate what was happening in this earliest version of Christianity. If we exclude the Pauline letters scholars are sure he didn’t write, then we can extrapolate whom they believed Jesus was. That’s the original church. And Jesus wasn’t the only one preaching this, though he was possibly less violent than others. But this fundamentalist fever destroyed what remained of Judea and we are gearing up for the final comic war.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 11, 2023 15:06:45 GMT
Dr Robyn Walsh challenges Paul's credibility. I’ve seen several of this podcaster’s videos. He has an ex-fundamentalist chip on his shoulder, but he has set up a platform for religious studies scholars to get beyond the Ivory Tower and get some this scholarship out to folks who need to hear it.
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Post by Meseia on May 12, 2023 1:29:37 GMT
Dr Robyn Walsh challenges Paul's credibility. I’ve seen several of this podcaster’s videos. He has an ex-fundamentalist chip on his shoulder, but he has set up a platform for religious studies scholars to get beyond the Ivory Tower and get some this scholarship out to folks who need to hear it. I agree with that summation, and he would probably agree with it too, I think. He is an excellent host because he shuts up and lets others have their say and is adamant about keeping politics out of the discussion. He did slip once. When he wants to talk, he makes a separate video, which I usually ignore. But the quality of scholars is top notch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2023 14:49:08 GMT
Most definitely not and Christ (if you believe in the existence of that person) would have been appalled by "Pauline" Christianity. How would you know? The Gospel writers seem to have had a Pauline influence so we can't easily separate the historical Christ from Pauline theology.
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Post by yggdrasil on Jun 2, 2023 15:57:00 GMT
Most definitely not and Christ (if you believe in the existence of that person) would have been appalled by "Pauline" Christianity. How would you know? The Gospel writers seem to have had a Pauline influence so we can't easily separate the historical Christ from Pauline theology. Jesus if he existed would have been a devout Jew, perverting that religion would not be something he would agree with.
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jun 2, 2023 18:01:22 GMT
How would you know? The Gospel writers seem to have had a Pauline influence so we can't easily separate the historical Christ from Pauline theology. Jesus if he existed would have been a devout Jew, perverting that religion would not be something he would agree with. Muslims who say that St. Paul was a false apostle usually quote this saying of Christ: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.-Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2023 20:16:11 GMT
How would you know? The Gospel writers seem to have had a Pauline influence so we can't easily separate the historical Christ from Pauline theology. Jesus if he existed would have been a devout Jew, perverting that religion would not be something he would agree with. Well, Paul himself was a Jew so if he was able to radically distance himself from Jewish orthodoxy, why couldn't Jesus? Plus it's not like there was a concrete Judaism at the time. The Pharisees and Sadducees had some major disagreements for instance.
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Post by drystyx on Jun 4, 2023 23:24:25 GMT
Just because someone wants to believe something, that doesn't make it true. And people who do this give themselves away with such comments as "because the average life expectancy was 24" in order to convince themselves that no one lives to be 48.
The first followers of Jesus didn't have access to the best papyrus, nor the best places to store papyrus, nor the most stable places to store scrolls, having to move out in a hurry quite often. They were persecuted well up to the reign of Constantine. When historians say an emperor was not actively suppressing them, it meant that the emperor wasn't going out of his way to suppress them, but they were still the scapegoats for anything that happened.
This led to a lot of copying from scrolls by their ill equipped scribes. Not "ill trained scribes", just "ill equipped scribes". It's like sending a farmers to grow crops in a desert and giving them seed packets that were stored in mildew and fertilizer from Monsanto.
Now, the question of whether Paul is reliable. He's more of a sadomasochist than any of the apostles. If fishermen were masochistic on the Sea of Galilee, they wouldn't live to be 10 years old.
Paul, however, had a different personality. The apostles were more into survival. When Jesus was crucified, they still had at least four direct descendants of David from the four brothers mentioned, along with whatever sons those four had, to look for a new Messiah, and that's what they obviously hoped for. They were not at all happy when they learned that they were going to have to tell a story that they knew would get them stoned to death (and that's if they were lucky. It more likely meant they would be burned alive, flayed alive, or beheaded).
Now, Paul isn't as reliable, because of his sadistic and masochistic History. I'll agree with that. But Mark and Luke weren't likely to be masochistic. Matthew and John surely weren't masochistic. Only an idiot would think that Matthew didn't actually bring about his first rendition of his gospel. The fact that there was no stability of resources, papyrus, scrolls, or places to store these resources means that people had to continually copy them in a tedious process. Only the most deranged and demon possessed idiot would hold onto the idea that dozens of scribes would agree to "rewrite" the original story with pretty much the exact same rewrites. But we have such idiots who call themselves "historians", and gullible morons who want to deify those idiots.
The lady in the video proves my point. As do many of the morons here.
No offense.
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Post by Meseia on Jun 9, 2023 5:12:53 GMT
The apostles were more into survival. When Jesus was crucified, they still had at least four direct descendants of David from the four brothers mentioned, along with whatever sons those four had, to look for a new Messiah, and that's what they obviously hoped for. They were not at all happy when they learned that they were going to have to tell a story that they knew would get them stoned to death (and that's if they were lucky. It more likely meant they would be burned alive, flayed alive, or beheaded). The apostles didn't write the Gospels, they were illiterate, uneducated commoners. The genealogy was made up decades later, that's why Jesus had 2. No one had a clue who was descended from David, lol.
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Post by drystyx on Jun 9, 2023 6:06:29 GMT
The apostles were more into survival. When Jesus was crucified, they still had at least four direct descendants of David from the four brothers mentioned, along with whatever sons those four had, to look for a new Messiah, and that's what they obviously hoped for. They were not at all happy when they learned that they were going to have to tell a story that they knew would get them stoned to death (and that's if they were lucky. It more likely meant they would be burned alive, flayed alive, or beheaded). The apostles didn't write the Gospels, they were illiterate, uneducated commoners. The genealogy was made up decades later, that's why Jesus had 2. No one had a clue who was descended from David, lol. You're going to believe whatever you want to believe. The sign of the ignorant sheep is that they say "if it's in the Bible I demand the opposite be true, nyah, nyah, nyah". And ironically, the ignorant sheep never even ask why they delight in their ignorance for motivation, as if it can be something that isn't supernatural. Ironic how you illustrate this so well, and yet you will never admit that your mind is closed to reality.
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Post by Meseia on Jun 9, 2023 17:30:17 GMT
The apostles didn't write the Gospels, they were illiterate, uneducated commoners. The genealogy was made up decades later, that's why Jesus had 2. No one had a clue who was descended from David, lol. You're going to believe whatever you want to believe. The sign of the ignorant sheep is that they say "if it's in the Bible I demand the opposite be true, nyah, nyah, nyah". And ironically, the ignorant sheep never even ask why they delight in their ignorance for motivation, as if it can be something that isn't supernatural. Ironic how you illustrate this so well, and yet you will never admit that your mind is closed to reality. You post like a time-wasting troll. Boring.
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