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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:16:04 GMT
Great. I try to keep my response to three sentences and you still give me three paragraphs. The one state solution only means the destruction of Israel if it must exist as an ethnostate. You've balked at that description yet here you are endorsing it. Israel never removed its thumb from Gaza and you know enough about history to know that. The one state solution only means the destruction of Israel if it must exist as an ethnostate. You've balked at that description yet here you are endorsing it.
What are you babbling about? You once said that Israel, being an ethnostate, cannot be a free democracy, and I said that is not true. So I have no problem with Israel being an ethnostate, as long as it is a free country, which it is. Israel never removed its thumb from Gaza and you know enough about history to know that.Lie. In 2005 Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza, and forced out all of the Jewish settlers. This is precisely what the world community and the Palestinians had been demanding, at least for Gaza. And you're wrong. An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive. Those settlers who were forced out... where did they go? No prizes for guessing.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 25, 2024 16:17:36 GMT
Brt: An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive.
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This is what the Palestinians are seeking for...Palestinians.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:17:42 GMT
It's the SAME f'n people though.
So you say. And in truth, I wouldn't blame them if they did. They're seeing a steady flow of corpses out of Gaza. Outrage has skyrocketed and for a valid reason. Israel is just crushing these people. This is not the same as your white grievance issues or because you don't want to wear a mask or get a jab. People are pissed off because of a real atrocity. The atrocity was the massacre of October 7. These protesters have no problem with THAT. They only hate it when Israelis fight back.
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:18:58 GMT
So you say. And in truth, I wouldn't blame them if they did. They're seeing a steady flow of corpses out of Gaza. Outrage has skyrocketed and for a valid reason. Israel is just crushing these people. This is not the same as your white grievance issues or because you don't want to wear a mask or get a jab. People are pissed off because of a real atrocity. The atrocity was the massacre of October 7. These protesters have no problem with THAT. They only hate it when Israelis fight back. Oct 7th was an atrocity. Now Israel is doing its own atrocities. It's not simply "fighting back". It's punitive and reprehensible. That is why opinion is shifting against them.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:22:07 GMT
The protesters want an end to the mass killing in Gaza
The protesters have no problem with the mass killing of ISRAELIS. and justice and equal rights to be given to PalestiniansTheir slogan, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", means the destruction of Israel. It is a violation of the right of Israelis to self-determination, and it would make Jews a minority everywhere and a majority nowhere, as was the case during the Holocaust.. Already addressed elsewhere. What you want is to silence them. You could at least be open about that. Hey, I don't want to take away anyone's First Amendment rights. You can quote me on that. But, at the same time, I have the right to condemn them for their hypocrisy and their contempt for the rights of Israelis.
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:27:34 GMT
Already addressed elsewhere. What you want is to silence them. You could at least be open about that. Hey, I don't want to take away anyone's First Amendment rights. You can quote me on that. But, at the same time, I have the right to condemn them for their hypocrisy and their contempt for the rights of Israelis. Except that's not quite the end of it, is it? They're getting arrested and some have called for the national guard. This idea is celebrated on this board for the most part.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:29:28 GMT
What rubbish. Israeli Arabs are citizens, have rights, vote, and serve in parliament, all of which is the OPPOSITE of apartheid. The Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, nor do they wish to be. They are under occupation, not because of apartheid, but to prevent them from launching more October 7 massacres. Within Israel proper perhaps (debatable on other points) but not their occupied territories, which fall under their purview. And if that's the case, that Arabs are equals, why are you opposed to bringing in more Arabs? Within Israel proper perhaps (debatable on other points) but not their occupied territories, which fall under their purview.The West Bank and part of Gaza are under Israeli occupation, because they are hostile. That does not mean Israel is practicing "apartheid". In the same way, the US and Britain occupied parts of Germany and all of Japan at the end of WWII, but neither the US nor Britain was practicing "apartheid". And if that's the case, that Arabs are equals, why are you opposed to bringing in more Arabs?
I said ISRAELI Arabs are equal. Palestinian Arabs, in contrast, are openly hostile to Israel. The majority of them want to obliterate Israel, and many of them want Genocide of the Jewish people. So Israelis would have to be insane to allow them in.
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:34:57 GMT
Within Israel proper perhaps (debatable on other points) but not their occupied territories, which fall under their purview. And if that's the case, that Arabs are equals, why are you opposed to bringing in more Arabs? Within Israel proper perhaps (debatable on other points) but not their occupied territories, which fall under their purview.The West Bank and part of Gaza are under Israeli occupation, because they are hostile. That does not mean Israel is practicing "apartheid". In the same way, the US and Britain occupied parts of Germany and all of Japan at the end of WWII, but neither the US nor Britain was practicing "apartheid". And if that's the case, that Arabs are equals, why are you opposed to bringing in more Arabs?
I said ISRAELI Arabs are equal. Palestinian Arabs, in contrast, are openly hostile to Israel. The majority of them want to obliterate Israel, and many of them want Genocide of the Jewish people. So Israelis would have to be insane to allow them in. Yes, it does mean they're doing that. There's no other way to describe it considering the Israelis have complete power over them. How long have they occupied them for, by the way? As long as America occupied Germany and Japan or a little longer? And most Israelis would likewise obliterate them and are openly hostile towards them. The only reason they can't obliterate them is because the West wouldn't tolerate it.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:48:15 GMT
The one state solution only means the destruction of Israel if it must exist as an ethnostate. You've balked at that description yet here you are endorsing it.
What are you babbling about? You once said that Israel, being an ethnostate, cannot be a free democracy, and I said that is not true. So I have no problem with Israel being an ethnostate, as long as it is a free country, which it is. Israel never removed its thumb from Gaza and you know enough about history to know that.Lie. In 2005 Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza, and forced out all of the Jewish settlers. This is precisely what the world community and the Palestinians had been demanding, at least for Gaza. And you're wrong. An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive. Those settlers who were forced out... where did they go? No prizes for guessing. And you're wrong. An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive.
You are the one who is wrong. All Israelis, including Israeli Arabs, have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to petition, voting rights, rights of the accused, and so forth. Israel's press runs from the far left to the far right, and Israel passes the main litmus test: Is the press allowed to criticize the government? Note also the huge demonstrations against Netanyahu when he railroaded his "judicial reform". If you want an authoritative source, try Freedom House. freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2024It ranks Israel as FREE, and most of its neighbors as NOT FREE. Those settlers who were forced out... where did they go? No prizes for guessing.
Many of them went back to Israel. There is a town in the Negev called Halutza which was founded by former settlers from Gaza.
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:51:12 GMT
And you're wrong. An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive. Those settlers who were forced out... where did they go? No prizes for guessing. And you're wrong. An ethnostate cannot be a free country. It is mutually exclusive.
You are the one who is wrong. All Israelis, including Israeli Arabs, have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to petition, voting rights, rights of the accused, and so forth. Israel's press runs from the far left to the far right, and Israel passes the main litmus test: Is the press allowed to criticize the government? Note also the huge demonstrations against Netanyahu when he railroaded his "judicial reform". If you want an authoritative source, try Freedom House. freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2024It ranks Israel as FREE, and most of its neighbors as NOT FREE. Those settlers who were forced out... where did they go? No prizes for guessing.
Many of them went back to Israel. There is a town in the Negev called Halutza which was founded by former settlers from Gaza. Is that right? Didn't Israel just pass a law to ban news organizations such as Al Jazeera? And no, you're incorrect. Most of them went to the West Bank.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:53:26 GMT
The atrocity was the massacre of October 7. These protesters have no problem with THAT. They only hate it when Israelis fight back. Oct 7th was an atrocity. Now Israel is doing its own atrocities. It's not simply "fighting back". It's punitive and reprehensible. That is why opinion is shifting against them. Rubbish. Israel is trying to destroy Hamas, because Hamas openly promised more October 7 massacres. Israel is NOT trying to kill civilians. But, again, in a densely populated place like Gaza, civilian casualties are inevitable. If the protesters really want to save the lives of Palestinians, they ought to urge the Palestinians to urge Hamas to surrender.
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 16:55:26 GMT
Oct 7th was an atrocity. Now Israel is doing its own atrocities. It's not simply "fighting back". It's punitive and reprehensible. That is why opinion is shifting against them. Rubbish. Israel is trying to destroy Hamas, because Hamas openly promised more October 7 massacres. Israel is NOT trying to kill civilians. But, again, in a densely populated place like Gaza, civilian casualties are inevitable. If the protesters really want to save the lives of Palestinians, they ought to urge the Palestinians to urge Hamas to surrender. Yeah, sure they aren't. That's why so many civilians are dead despite Israel having the military tech to blow up a single apartment in a targeted strike. If the protesters want to save the lives of Palestinians, they should keep on doing what they're doing and pressure the government, which in turn will pressure Israel.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 16:59:11 GMT
Hey, I don't want to take away anyone's First Amendment rights. You can quote me on that. But, at the same time, I have the right to condemn them for their hypocrisy and their contempt for the rights of Israelis. Except that's not quite the end of it, is it? They're getting arrested and some have called for the national guard. This idea is celebrated on this board for the most part. The ones getting arrested have gone beyond just protesting, and have either engaged in trespassing, vandalism, harassment, or out-and-out violence. Just the other day I read about a pro-Palestinian protester who stabbed someone in the eye. nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/jewish-yale-student-stabbed-in-the-eye-with-palestinian-flag-during-protest/
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Post by bartlesby on Apr 25, 2024 17:00:28 GMT
You had to pick that story? What, are you trying to make it easy for me? That's already been debunked. On this board, no less.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 25, 2024 17:13:09 GMT
Within Israel proper perhaps (debatable on other points) but not their occupied territories, which fall under their purview.The West Bank and part of Gaza are under Israeli occupation, because they are hostile. That does not mean Israel is practicing "apartheid". In the same way, the US and Britain occupied parts of Germany and all of Japan at the end of WWII, but neither the US nor Britain was practicing "apartheid". And if that's the case, that Arabs are equals, why are you opposed to bringing in more Arabs?
I said ISRAELI Arabs are equal. Palestinian Arabs, in contrast, are openly hostile to Israel. The majority of them want to obliterate Israel, and many of them want Genocide of the Jewish people. So Israelis would have to be insane to allow them in. Yes, it does mean they're doing that. There's no other way to describe it considering the Israelis have complete power over them. How long have they occupied them for, by the way? As long as America occupied Germany and Japan or a little longer? And most Israelis would likewise obliterate them and are openly hostile towards them. The only reason they can't obliterate them is because the West wouldn't tolerate it. Yes, it does mean they're doing that [apartheid]. There's no other way to describe it considering the Israelis have complete power over them.
Rubbish. If Israel ended its occupation of the West Bank, the Palestinians there would launch October 7 massacres, just like their cousins in Gaza did. So Israel is fully justified in maintaining its occupation. It is not apartheid. Instead, it is analogous to the post-WWII Allied occupations of Germany and Japan. How long have they occupied them for, by the way? As long as America occupied Germany and Japan or a little longer?
My answer to that is so obvious. Germany and Japan realized they would have no future unless they abandoned militarism and tyranny, so they turned to the ways of peace and freedom. The Allies were able to end the occupation of Germany in 1949 and the occupation of Japan in 1952. In contrast, the Palestinians are just as hostile as ever. Polls show that more than 70% of them approve of Hamas and of the October 7 atrocities. So Israel must maintain the occupation until such time as the Palestinians become peaceful, if ever. Meanwhile, the protests by leftists are music to the ears of the Palestinians. The Palestinians see that there is support for their endless jihad, and contempt for Israel, so it gives them the incentive to maintain hostilities, which in turn leads to more Palestinian casualties. Thus, the actions of the leftists lead to the opposite of what the leftists want. And most Israelis would likewise obliterate them and are openly hostile towards them. The only reason they can't obliterate them is because the West wouldn't tolerate it.
I doubt it. Israeli education emphasizes the Holocaust, and so many Israelis would not allow the country to commit Genocide.
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