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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 15:19:22 GMT
That is not the religion's fault. I'm religious. But I'm educated. If somebody is stupid, it is better they have religion than not. That is not religion. That is the misuse of religion. That is like blaming the gun when somebody shoots somebody. Or the car when a bad driver gets in an accident. You are not hidebound to doctrine either. I will guess that you do not believe in any literal way the creation narrative(s) in the Bible that is the single foundation of the three major world religions that have shaped our global society profoundly in the last two thousand years and currently covers half of the world’s religious. Correct. Because I'm not stupid. But think about it. If a person is so stupid to believe their religion literally, at least their religion gives them morals and ethics. Without their religion, these morons would be a total trainwreck. And a detriment to society.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 16:06:55 GMT
You are not hidebound to doctrine either. I will guess that you do not believe in any literal way the creation narrative(s) in the Bible that is the single foundation of the three major world religions that have shaped our global society profoundly in the last two thousand years and currently covers half of the world’s religious. Correct. Because I'm not stupid. But think about it. If a person is so stupid to believe their religion literally, at least their religion gives them morals and ethics. Without their religion, these morons would be a total trainwreck. And a detriment to society. But the same morals and ethics are available to atheists too. As I said, atheism is only something former Christians, however tightly or loosely raised as one are. Even they, like the non-church affiliated and agnostic, will adopt, even unconsciously, Christian morality and culture. Only Christianity requires a “I believe…” to spoken out loud at some point in the faithful’s religious journey. This come from the generations of bishops, theologians, and philosophers arguing between the early Pauline churches and its contenders, which were all over the place theology-wise. The Nicene Creed, finally hammered out, is the declaration of Christian faith. If you can say it and mean it however you rationalize it, then you’re an orthodox Christian. If you say can only part of it or none of it, then you’re a heterodox Christian, or as they used to say, a heretic. My shaggy point is, religion to be a religion demands orthodoxy and orthodox message that all of the faithful must believe in Christ came to save humans from eternal damnation of Original Sin because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. From that moment in human history, just being born was a sin unless you were saved from it by the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person doesn’t believe in the Garden of Eden part, then that nullifies the reason for the Jesus part, and they are worshiping something other than the God in the “I believe…” part. Anyhow, big “R” religion functions as a “machine” in the way other social institutions do and seems to have a collect unconscious “sense” of self-preservation. When heretical ideas enter the system, certain modes of belief like superstition kick in to drawn in the believer constituents to protect the central doctrine or reason for the religion’s existence, in Christianity’s case it is Jesus Christ as God in a Holy Trinity. Only through it is there salvation from eternal damnation. This is not to be confused with the church or believers. It is a self-perpetrating meme within its literary structure and memes tend to fit patterns. The response in Christianity being opened to modes out thought outside the religion tends to result in conservative backlashes within the ranks of believers like Traditionalism in Catholicism and Fundamentalism in Protestantism before it reaches the theologians. The meme bleeds over into American political memes as right wing, patriotic populism and historical revisionism. Retro-medievalism superstition takes over rational thinking and discourse, like the 17th century witch-hunts or modern day Satanic panics.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 16:29:46 GMT
Correct. Because I'm not stupid. But think about it. If a person is so stupid to believe their religion literally, at least their religion gives them morals and ethics. Without their religion, these morons would be a total trainwreck. And a detriment to society. But the same morals and ethics are available to atheists too. As I said, atheism is only something former Christians, however tightly or loosely raised as one are. Even they, like the non-church affiliated and agnostic, will adopt, even unconsciously, Christian morality and culture. Only Christianity requires a “I believe…” to spoken out loud at some point in the faithful’s religious journey. This come from the generations of bishops, theologians, and philosophers arguing between the early Pauline churches and its contenders, which were all over the place theology-wise. The Nicene Creed, finally hammered out, is the declaration of Christian faith. If you can say it and mean it however you rationalize it, then you’re an orthodox Christian. If you say can only part of it or none of it, then you’re a heterodox Christian, or as they used to say, a heretic. My shaggy point is, religion to be a religion demands orthodoxy and orthodox message that all of the faithful must believe in Christ came to save humans from eternal damnation of Original Sin because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. From that moment in human history, just being born was a sin unless you were saved from it by the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person doesn’t believe in the Garden of Eden part, then that nullifies the reason for the Jesus part, and they are worshiping something other than the God in the “I believe…” part. Anyhow, big “R” religion functions as a “machine” in the way other social institutions do and seems to have a collect unconscious “sense” of self-preservation. When heretical ideas enter the system, certain modes of belief like superstition kick in to drawn in the believer constituents to protect the central doctrine or reason for the religion’s existence, in Christianity’s case it is Jesus Christ as God in a Holy Trinity. Only through it is there salvation from eternal damnation. This is not to be confused with the church or believers. It is a self-perpetrating meme within its literary structure and memes tend to fit patterns. The response in Christianity being opened to modes out thought outside the religion tends to result in conservative backlashes within the ranks of believers like Traditionalism in Catholicism and Fundamentalism in Protestantism before it reaches the theologians. The meme bleeds over into American political memes as right wing, patriotic populism and historical revisionism. Retro-medievalism superstition takes over rational thinking and discourse, like the 17th century witch-hunts or modern day Satanic panics. Most religious people in all 1rst world countries are not followers of orthodoxy. Because they are educated at home, at school, and socially. In 3rd world countries, usually the education system is so bad, religion is the only education they get. Without it, they would be virtually hopless as productive citizens. But on the other hand, uneducated people are most vulnerable to manipulation and radical extremism.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 16:45:03 GMT
But the same morals and ethics are available to atheists too. As I said, atheism is only something former Christians, however tightly or loosely raised as one are. Even they, like the non-church affiliated and agnostic, will adopt, even unconsciously, Christian morality and culture. Only Christianity requires a “I believe…” to spoken out loud at some point in the faithful’s religious journey. This come from the generations of bishops, theologians, and philosophers arguing between the early Pauline churches and its contenders, which were all over the place theology-wise. The Nicene Creed, finally hammered out, is the declaration of Christian faith. If you can say it and mean it however you rationalize it, then you’re an orthodox Christian. If you say can only part of it or none of it, then you’re a heterodox Christian, or as they used to say, a heretic. My shaggy point is, religion to be a religion demands orthodoxy and orthodox message that all of the faithful must believe in Christ came to save humans from eternal damnation of Original Sin because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. From that moment in human history, just being born was a sin unless you were saved from it by the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person doesn’t believe in the Garden of Eden part, then that nullifies the reason for the Jesus part, and they are worshiping something other than the God in the “I believe…” part. Anyhow, big “R” religion functions as a “machine” in the way other social institutions do and seems to have a collect unconscious “sense” of self-preservation. When heretical ideas enter the system, certain modes of belief like superstition kick in to drawn in the believer constituents to protect the central doctrine or reason for the religion’s existence, in Christianity’s case it is Jesus Christ as God in a Holy Trinity. Only through it is there salvation from eternal damnation. This is not to be confused with the church or believers. It is a self-perpetrating meme within its literary structure and memes tend to fit patterns. The response in Christianity being opened to modes out thought outside the religion tends to result in conservative backlashes within the ranks of believers like Traditionalism in Catholicism and Fundamentalism in Protestantism before it reaches the theologians. The meme bleeds over into American political memes as right wing, patriotic populism and historical revisionism. Retro-medievalism superstition takes over rational thinking and discourse, like the 17th century witch-hunts or modern day Satanic panics. Most religious people in all 1rst world countries are not followers of orthodoxy. Because they are educated at home, at school, and socially. In 3rd world countries, usually the education system is so bad, religion is the only education they get. Without it, they would be virtually hopless as productive citizens. But on the other hand, uneducated people are most vulnerable to manipulation and radical extremism. Then why are the orthodox religions still prevailing and growing stronger? You can say nowadays Christians make up a hodgepodge of beliefs antithetical to Christianity, as the only Christianity is the orthodox version, (this means Mormonism is not Christianity) this can’t be said of Islam…once the only shining light in a brutal, medieval world…which has been undergoing a devolution of rationality for centuries. Christianity will follow the same path or its central meme is endangered of going extinct.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 16:50:37 GMT
Most religious people in all 1rst world countries are not followers of orthodoxy. Because they are educated at home, at school, and socially. In 3rd world countries, usually the education system is so bad, religion is the only education they get. Without it, they would be virtually hopless as productive citizens. But on the other hand, uneducated people are most vulnerable to manipulation and radical extremism. Then why are the orthodox religions still prevailing and growing stronger? You can say nowadays Christians make up a hodgepodge of beliefs antithetical to Christianity, as the only Christianity is the orthodox version, (this means Mormonism is not Christianity) this can’t be said of Islam…once the only shining light in a brutal, medieval world…which has been undergoing a devolution of rationality for centuries. Christianity will follow the same path or its central meme is endangered of going extinct. Where? 1rst world countries? Or 3rd world countries? Or both?
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 17:08:27 GMT
Then why are the orthodox religions still prevailing and growing stronger? You can say nowadays Christians make up a hodgepodge of beliefs antithetical to Christianity, as the only Christianity is the orthodox version, (this means Mormonism is not Christianity) this can’t be said of Islam…once the only shining light in a brutal, medieval world…which has been undergoing a devolution of rationality for centuries. Christianity will follow the same path or its central meme is endangered of going extinct. Where? 1rst world countries? Or 3rd world countries? Or both? The USA is in danger of being taken over by religious fundamentalists as we speak. Even so, don’t worry about the numbers. A world-shattering event has a way of increasing numbers real fast. These churches (the body of believers) individually are weak, but when they see under threat their shared meme as something they must protect, they unite as one church (body), socially and politically, to protect the message. This is the unthought memetic mission of any orthodox religion. Certainly in times of hardship, big R religion becomes a magnet for folks, but it rarely goes heterodox during those periods, but orthodox, since the message is God is punishing us for being wayward. Entire chapters of the Bible are devoted to this theme(me). Therefore times of chaos are great for orthodox religion as it gives it a chance to clean out bad ideas and people. Despite this, great thinkers and movements have came directly out of Christianity, but even they always had to walk a fine line or suffer the consequences if their ideas even hinted against orthodoxy.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 17:29:51 GMT
Where? 1rst world countries? Or 3rd world countries? Or both? The USA is in danger of being taken over by religious fundamentalists as we speak. Even so, don’t worry about the numbers. A world-shattering event has a way of increasing numbers real fast. These churches (the body of believers) individually are weak, but when they see under threat their shared meme as something they must protect, they unite as one church (body), socially and politically, to protect the message. This is the unthought memetic mission of any orthodox religion. Certainly in times of hardship, big R religion becomes a magnet for folks, but it rarely goes heterodox during those periods, but orthodox, since the message is God is punishing us for being wayward. Entire chapters of the Bible are devoted to this theme(me). Therefore times of chaos are great for orthodox religion as it gives it a chance to clean out bad ideas and people. Despite this, great thinkers and movements have came directly out of Christianity, but even they always had to walk a fine line or suffer the consequences if their ideas even hinted against orthodoxy. I don't think so. All the latest polls show Donald Trump and the religious right not popular enough to overtake anything. Of course they are powerful enough to have a measurable effect on things. Always have been. But not enough to take over. If the religious right couldn't take over at the height of the Muslim revolution (AL Queda, ISIS), I don't think they are a threat now. Last but not least, majority rules. So if the majority of the voters vote for religious fundamentalism, either most voters want it. Or the eligible voters allowed it to happen because of inactivity and irresponsibility. In a democracy, right doesn't make popular. You have to sell it to the masses. That is what Donald Trump did. That is what the religious right does.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 17:49:55 GMT
The USA is in danger of being taken over by religious fundamentalists as we speak. Even so, don’t worry about the numbers. A world-shattering event has a way of increasing numbers real fast. These churches (the body of believers) individually are weak, but when they see under threat their shared meme as something they must protect, they unite as one church (body), socially and politically, to protect the message. This is the unthought memetic mission of any orthodox religion. Certainly in times of hardship, big R religion becomes a magnet for folks, but it rarely goes heterodox during those periods, but orthodox, since the message is God is punishing us for being wayward. Entire chapters of the Bible are devoted to this theme(me). Therefore times of chaos are great for orthodox religion as it gives it a chance to clean out bad ideas and people. Despite this, great thinkers and movements have came directly out of Christianity, but even they always had to walk a fine line or suffer the consequences if their ideas even hinted against orthodoxy. I don't think so. All the latest polls show Donald Trump and the religious right not popular enough to overtake anything. Of course they are powerful enough to have a measurable effect on things. Always have been. But not enough to take over. If the religious right couldn't take over at the height of the Muslim revolution (AL Queda, ISIS), I don't think they are a threat now. Last but not least, majority rules. So if the majority of the voters vote for religious fundamentalism, either most voters want it. Or the eligible voters allowed it to happen because of inactivity and irresponsibility. In a democracy, right doesn't make popular. You have to sell it to the masses. That is what Donald Trump did. That is what the religious right does. We have six Supreme Court justices who are using religion as a basis to reject equal protection under the law. Rationally there is no reason to prevent same sex marriage, it is religiously. They will decide if states can enforce ad hoc religious doctrine back into secular laws like we used to have. It is not that people are thinking this social orthodoxy into being, it is a unconscious motive that operates on its own. Think of Religion as a living organism. In Christianity is literal per their dogma.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 17:56:48 GMT
I don't think so. All the latest polls show Donald Trump and the religious right not popular enough to overtake anything. Of course they are powerful enough to have a measurable effect on things. Always have been. But not enough to take over. If the religious right couldn't take over at the height of the Muslim revolution (AL Queda, ISIS), I don't think they are a threat now. Last but not least, majority rules. So if the majority of the voters vote for religious fundamentalism, either most voters want it. Or the eligible voters allowed it to happen because of inactivity and irresponsibility. In a democracy, right doesn't make popular. You have to sell it to the masses. That is what Donald Trump did. That is what the religious right does. We have six Supreme Court justices who are using religion as a basis to reject equal protection under the law. Rationally there is no reason to prevent same sex marriage, it is religiously. They will decide if states can enforce ad hoc religious doctrine back into secular laws like we used to have. It is not that people are thinking this social orthodoxy into being, it is a unconscious motive that operates on its own. Think of Religion as a living organism. In Christianity is literal per their dogma. The Supreme Court outlawed abortion, and so far, it's been a boon for the Democrats. The Supreme Court is not the final word. The people are. But they have to exercise their power.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 18:02:18 GMT
We have six Supreme Court justices who are using religion as a basis to reject equal protection under the law. Rationally there is no reason to prevent same sex marriage, it is religiously. They will decide if states can enforce ad hoc religious doctrine back into secular laws like we used to have. It is not that people are thinking this social orthodoxy into being, it is a unconscious motive that operates on its own. Think of Religion as a living organism. In Christianity is literal per their dogma. The Supreme Court outlawed abortion, and so far, it's been a boon for the Democrats. The Supreme Court is not the final word. The people are. But they have to exercise their power. I’m talking about the pattern of behavior. This doesn’t mean the behavior’s end result is successful. That they are there in the first place is significant.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 18:04:50 GMT
The Supreme Court outlawed abortion, and so far, it's been a boon for the Democrats. The Supreme Court is not the final word. The people are. But they have to exercise their power. I’m talking about the pattern of behavior. This doesn’t mean the behavior’s end result is successful. They are definitely a threat. But there always are threats. They ain't as bad as AL Queda, ISIS or the Taliban.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 18:10:54 GMT
I’m talking about the pattern of behavior. This doesn’t mean the behavior’s end result is successful. They are definitely a threat. But there always are threats. They ain't as bad as AL Queda or ISIS. These orthodox revivals can be a good thing or bad society, this isn’t good or evil, the core of Religions is message based, not moral based. The Religion does not care so long as its core information survives intact. So far Christianity and Islam both has fought off ever modernizing, heterodox trend. Eastern religions don’t have this issue since they are not big R religions with a central Truth message needing protection.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 18:56:30 GMT
They are definitely a threat. But there always are threats. They ain't as bad as AL Queda or ISIS. These orthodox revivals can be a good thing or bad society, this isn’t good or evil, the core of Religions is message based, not moral based. The Religion does not care so long as its core information survives intact. So far Christianity and Islam both has fought off ever modernizing, heterodox trend. Eastern religions don’t have this issue since they are not big R religions with a central Truth message needing protection. I was raised in the Catholic Church. It was moral based when I was there. Not message based.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Sept 28, 2022 19:01:12 GMT
These orthodox revivals can be a good thing or bad society, this isn’t good or evil, the core of Religions is message based, not moral based. The Religion does not care so long as its core information survives intact. So far Christianity and Islam both has fought off ever modernizing, heterodox trend. Eastern religions don’t have this issue since they are not big R religions with a central Truth message needing protection. I was raised in the Catholic Church. It was moral based when I was there. Not message based. The central message in Christianity is salvation, not morality, that’s a consequence of salvation. Living a 100% moral life will not save a person from Hell. This is why most orthodox Christians ignore Jesus’ morality teachings.
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Post by movieliker on Sept 28, 2022 20:49:09 GMT
I was raised in the Catholic Church. It was moral based when I was there. Not message based. The central message in Christianity is salvation, not morality, that’s a consequence of salvation. Living a 100% moral life will not save a person from Hell. This is why most orthodox Christians ignore Jesus’ morality teachings. That is wrong. Christianity teaches the only way to get to Heaven is to praise God through prayer and action. The actions are moral and ethical behavior. (For example, one thing we were taught is, "You love God by loving others".)
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