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Post by Winter_King on May 22, 2023 9:40:13 GMT
There is a series of books by Harry Turtledove (the father of alternate history) called Southern Victory which details the victory of the CSA in the American Civil War and accompanies what happens until the mid 20th century. Both World Wars are vastly different and it makes sense. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_VictoryI think the U.S. and the Confederacy, having common American ties, would have peacefully coexisted and become trading partners. By 1900 the Confederacy would have followed suit with the rest of the world and abolished slavery. But there would still have been apartheid and segregation in the South.
That's interesting. If the Kaiser had won World War I, there probably would have still been a far right Nazi movement agitating against the imperial German government.
Unlikely. The treaty of Versailles and the humiliation of defeat played a big role in the rise of the nationalist far right parties in Germany including the Nazi party. The monarchists that supported the Kaiser, belonged to the old Prussian aristocracy. Most them old school conservatives that ended up supporting the Nazis against the liberal Weimar Republic. German victory in WW1 probably wouldn't have prevented a second World War but the participants would be different. The second war could've been against the Soviet Union or who knows? Maybe a far right movement appears in France or the UK because of their defeat in WW1 and you have WW2 against French "Nazis. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 14:46:42 GMT
There is a series of books by Harry Turtledove (the father of alternate history) called Southern Victory which details the victory of the CSA in the American Civil War and accompanies what happens until the mid 20th century. Both World Wars are vastly different and it makes sense. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_VictoryI think the U.S. and the Confederacy, having common American ties, would have peacefully coexisted and become trading partners. By 1900 the Confederacy would have followed suit with the rest of the world and abolished slavery. But there would still have been apartheid and segregation in the South.
That's interesting. If the Kaiser had won World War I, there probably would have still been a far right Nazi movement agitating against the imperial German government.
No there would not, if Germany had won World War 1, the cause of the Nazi movement would not exist. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 23, 2023 0:18:22 GMT
I don't see the CSA siding with Germany in WW2 on principle. They were racist, but not antisemitic. Some of the CSA's highest ranking officials, Attorney General Judah Benjamin and Treasurer David Levy Yulee (who has a county named after him in Florida) were Jewish. But as always in alternate history, God only knows how different circumstances would've made strange bedfellows. I think they'd have stayed out of it. You are forgetting how strong the pro German lobby was in the US at the time though, played a big part in America refusing to get involved in the early days. Would have been quite simple to have just stayed out the conflict, even if it would have meant Germany knocking on the door come the mid 50's which would have been the likely outcome. Much of the American Nazi movement was based in the German American community and the South never had a large influx of German immigrants like in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, or the MidWest. There wouldn’t have been a cultural identity connection. Actually, the cultural identities available were White and Black. Would they have allied with Nazi Germany, I think so, as Hitler admired the Jim Crow South. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 23, 2023 14:47:07 GMT
Another thought on this hypothetical, if the Confederacy had won its independence, it probably would not have lasted into the 20th century. They had no philosophy of human progress. Slave rebellions and pressure from outside to free the slaves would have continued and the industrialized world would have embargoed it. Soon, most of the border states would have begged re-entry into the Union. The remaining core states would be too weak to withstand an invasion from Cuba and the Caribbean countries. This I think would have effectively ended the desire for institutionalized Christian White Supremacy. That the South lost its cause in the war was its greatest victory.
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Post by Prince Myshkin on May 24, 2023 7:23:40 GMT
I think the U.S. and the Confederacy, having common American ties, would have peacefully coexisted and become trading partners. By 1900 the Confederacy would have followed suit with the rest of the world and abolished slavery. But there would still have been apartheid and segregation in the South.
That's interesting. If the Kaiser had won World War I, there probably would have still been a far right Nazi movement agitating against the imperial German government.
Unlikely. The treaty of Versailles and the humiliation of defeat played a big role in the rise of the nationalist far right parties in Germany including the Nazi party. The monarchists that supported the Kaiser, belonged to the old Prussian aristocracy. Most them old school conservatives that ended up supporting the Nazis against the liberal Weimar Republic. German victory in WW1 probably wouldn't have prevented a second World War but the participants would be different. The second war could've been against the Soviet Union or who knows? Maybe a far right movement appears in France or the UK because of their defeat in WW1 and you have WW2 against French "Nazis. I think the U.S. and the Confederacy, having common American ties, would have peacefully coexisted and become trading partners. By 1900 the Confederacy would have followed suit with the rest of the world and abolished slavery. But there would still have been apartheid and segregation in the South.
That's interesting. If the Kaiser had won World War I, there probably would have still been a far right Nazi movement agitating against the imperial German government.
No there would not, if Germany had won World War 1, the cause of the Nazi movement would not exist. No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser.
There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
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Post by Winter_King on May 24, 2023 8:25:21 GMT
Unlikely. The treaty of Versailles and the humiliation of defeat played a big role in the rise of the nationalist far right parties in Germany including the Nazi party. The monarchists that supported the Kaiser, belonged to the old Prussian aristocracy. Most them old school conservatives that ended up supporting the Nazis against the liberal Weimar Republic. German victory in WW1 probably wouldn't have prevented a second World War but the participants would be different. The second war could've been against the Soviet Union or who knows? Maybe a far right movement appears in France or the UK because of their defeat in WW1 and you have WW2 against French "Nazis. No there would not, if Germany had won World War 1, the cause of the Nazi movement would not exist. No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser.
There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
But fascism didn't appear in different countries for the same reasons. Germany's Nazism is directly connected to the defeat of WW1, the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the policies of Weimar Germany. The nationalists would've been in power if Germany had won WW1. So there would be no reason to "emerge". It was already emerged. Again, many of the Nazi supporters were the old aristocracy of the Kaiser. They supported Hitler because they had lost power during the inter war years. This wouldn't have happened in Germany was the victor |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 8:47:44 GMT
Unlikely. The treaty of Versailles and the humiliation of defeat played a big role in the rise of the nationalist far right parties in Germany including the Nazi party. The monarchists that supported the Kaiser, belonged to the old Prussian aristocracy. Most them old school conservatives that ended up supporting the Nazis against the liberal Weimar Republic. German victory in WW1 probably wouldn't have prevented a second World War but the participants would be different. The second war could've been against the Soviet Union or who knows? Maybe a far right movement appears in France or the UK because of their defeat in WW1 and you have WW2 against French "Nazis. No there would not, if Germany had won World War 1, the cause of the Nazi movement would not exist. No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser.
There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
If Germany had won WW1, History would have turned out differently, it would not be a copy of how history turned out. |
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Post by JHA Durant on May 24, 2023 11:40:14 GMT
No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser.
There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
If Germany had won WW1, History would have turned out differently, it would not be a copy of how history turned out. There's a hugely popular Hearts of Iron IV mod called Kaiserreich which explores a German victory in World War 1 and the aftermath. Althistoryhub did a video on it: |
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Post by Winter_King on May 24, 2023 13:11:53 GMT
If Germany had won WW1, History would have turned out differently, it would not be a copy of how history turned out. T here's a hugely popular Hearts of Iron IV mod called Kaiserreich which explores a German victory in World War 1 and the aftermath. Althistoryhub did a video on it: I wish I knew how to play that game but every time I start, it feels too complex and I just give up. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on May 24, 2023 13:26:26 GMT
What ifs seem pointless to me regarding historical events because things will always play out based on consequence of action. That is the only absolute in universal order. One can only know about and live through what happens and their experience of it. Knowing anything different is not possible. Antiquated issues and human rights violations would have still been addressed and fixed in due course.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 24, 2023 13:31:17 GMT
No, fascism was continental in Europe. Both Italy and Spain were fascist. But neither fought with Germany in World War I.
So a fascist or "national socialist" movement would still have emerged in Germany even under the Kaiser. There are historical tides which cannot be stemmed by external events.
But fascism didn't appear in different countries for the same reasons. Germany's Nazism is directly connected to the defeat of WW1, the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the policies of Weimar Germany. The nationalists would've been in power if Germany had won WW1. So there would be no reason to "emerge". It was already emerged. Again, many of the Nazi supporters were the old aristocracy of the Kaiser. They supported Hitler because they had lost power during the inter war years. This wouldn't have happened in Germany was the victor Jim Crow, which was proto-facism, was directly caused by the South’s defeat and the South’s aristocracy was the planter class. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on May 24, 2023 13:33:54 GMT
What ifs seem pointless to me regarding historical events because things will always play out based on consequence of action. That is the only absolute in universal order. One can only know about and live through what happens and their experience of it. Knowing anything different is not possible. Antiquated issues and human rights violations would have still been addressed and fixed in due course. But to ignore the past and not try to improve the state of humanity is ignorance asking for trouble.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 13:34:54 GMT
What ifs seem pointless to me regarding historical events because things will always play out based on consequence of action. That is the only absolute in universal order. One can only know about and live through what happens and their experience of it. Knowing anything different is not possible. Antiquated issues and human rights violations would have still been addressed and fixed in due course. I agree, historical "what ifs" are pointless. But just because it`s pointless, does not mean it can`t be fun. A lot of things that are fun or people think are fun, are pointless. |
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on May 24, 2023 13:40:43 GMT
What ifs seem pointless to me regarding historical events because things will always play out based on consequence of action. That is the only absolute in universal order. One can only know about and live through what happens and their experience of it. Knowing anything different is not possible. Antiquated issues and human rights violations would have still been addressed and fixed in due course. I agree, historical "what ifs" are pointless. But just because it`s pointless, does not mean it can`t be fun. A lot of things that are fun or people think are fun, are pointless. I’m not getting your segue into the “fun” point. It’s a waste of time discussing something that can’t be known or has no evidence for. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 13:41:36 GMT
I agree, historical "what ifs" are pointless. But just because it`s pointless, does not mean it can`t be fun. A lot of things that are fun or people think are fun, are pointless. . It’s a waste of time discussing something that can’t be known or has no evidence for. That's not my problem. |
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