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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 12:04:38 GMT
The over-saturation argument is horseshit. If they were all high quality, we’d be riveted, basking in the golden age of superhero films. They’ve made nothing but bad products. Surely it’s the quality that is the issue. If you are perpetually 15 years old in the head. Quality is right though. Maybe one comic book movie has true quality in my estimation, the rest is either fun b-picture style entertainment or as Marty says, theme park rides. If superhero films are limited, you are limited.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 12:10:00 GMT
If you are perpetually 15 years old in the head. Quality is right though. Maybe one comic book movie has true quality in my estimation, the rest is either fun b-picture style entertainment or as Marty says, theme park rides. If superhero films are limited, you are limited. Any pulp genre is limited. Comic book narratives generally are written for kids because that was the original target audience.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 12:55:13 GMT
If superhero films are limited, you are limited. Any pulp genre is limited. Comic book narratives generally are written for kids because that was the original target audience. And you don’t believe that it can transcend such limitations? I think it can. But even if I didn’t, I’m sure that most believe that superhero films can be off a high quality. The kind of quality of say, CA:TWS. If the MCU was constantly of such quality then it would be intriguing for a very large audience. Now Disney has produced nothing but garbage for years. In such a scenario, how can you argue that the quantity is the issue? If they released such garbage over a small amount of time, the effect wouldn’t be to the positive.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 13:10:06 GMT
Any pulp genre is limited. Comic book narratives generally are written for kids because that was the original target audience. And you don’t believe that it can transcend such limitations? I think it can. But even if I didn’t, I’m sure that most believe that superhero films can be off a high quality. The kind of quality of say, CA:TWS. If the MCU was constantly of such quality then it would be intriguing for a very large audience. Now Disney has produced nothing but garbage for years. In such a scenario, how can you argue that the quantity is the issue? If they released such garbage over a small amount of time, the effect wouldn’t be to the positive. I haven’t see it so far and I’m not saying these movies can’t become rightly beloved by audiences because they tap into our emotions and are ripping good yarns. I’m talking the filmmaking. The first hurdle is the costumed characters. No matter how close to Citizen Kane or Vertigo a Batman filmmaker can get, it’s still going to be about a detective in a bat suit with neat gadgets chasing a clown. The action is the driver as much as the plot and in depth characterization isn’t needed, though it helps. The second is the outlandish circumstances. There are often space aliens and gods from the divine realms and humans genius abilities with unlimited wealth, science enhanced bodies, and ghosts and goblins, all either destroying or saving Planet Earth at once. The only film I think did transcend this problem is Joker because they minimized the superhero/villain aspect.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 13:22:59 GMT
And you don’t believe that it can transcend such limitations? I think it can. But even if I didn’t, I’m sure that most believe that superhero films can be off a high quality. The kind of quality of say, CA:TWS. If the MCU was constantly of such quality then it would be intriguing for a very large audience. Now Disney has produced nothing but garbage for years. In such a scenario, how can you argue that the quantity is the issue? If they released such garbage over a small amount of time, the effect wouldn’t be to the positive. I haven’t see it so far and I’m not saying these movies can’t become rightly beloved by audiences because they tap into our emotions and are ripping good yarns. I’m talking the filmmaking. The first hurdle is the costumed characters. No matter how close to Citizen Kane or Vertigo a Batman filmmaker can get, it’s still going to be about a detective in a bat suit with neat gadgets chasing a clown. The action is the driver as much as the plot and in depth characterization isn’t needed, though it helps. The second is the outlandish circumstances. There are often space aliens and gods from the divine realms and humans genius abilities with unlimited wealth, science enhanced bodies, and ghosts and goblins, all either destroying or saving Planet Earth at once. The only film I think did transcend this problem is Joker because they minimized the superhero/villain aspect. Even if such conditions were necessary for the superhero genre, they don’t limit the possibilities of storytelling integrity.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 13:30:22 GMT
I haven’t see it so far and I’m not saying these movies can’t become rightly beloved by audiences because they tap into our emotions and are ripping good yarns. I’m talking the filmmaking. The first hurdle is the costumed characters. No matter how close to Citizen Kane or Vertigo a Batman filmmaker can get, it’s still going to be about a detective in a bat suit with neat gadgets chasing a clown. The action is the driver as much as the plot and in depth characterization isn’t needed, though it helps. The second is the outlandish circumstances. There are often space aliens and gods from the divine realms and humans genius abilities with unlimited wealth, science enhanced bodies, and ghosts and goblins, all either destroying or saving Planet Earth at once. The only film I think did transcend this problem is Joker because they minimized the superhero/villain aspect. Even if such conditions were necessary for the superhero genre, they don’t limit the possibilities of storytelling integrity. They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 13:36:42 GMT
Even if such conditions were necessary for the superhero genre, they don’t limit the possibilities of storytelling integrity. They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking. But they have the potential to transcend these limits that you believe they have. They might have different parameters of reality. That doesn’t negate their capability of being excellent literature. Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children won the Booker prize. The world of literature doesn’t seem to think that the science fiction genre is outside of great literature. You will never concede that your logic is faulty. But it is.
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Post by anwar on Jul 27, 2023 13:41:49 GMT
I still don't get what the complaints were about. The series' ending was deliberately left to be continued into other movies.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 15:30:15 GMT
Emilia Clarke’s G’iah is now the most powerful MCU character.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 16:17:34 GMT
Disney is in a bad spot right now. Nothing from Marvel seems to be met with much love anymore. Multiverse of Madness seemed somewhat divisive at the time, but now that’s probably their most well-liked project in a couple years. Then you have Mando S3 on the Star Wars side, which was a disappointment. If not even that show can keep people optimistic, then I’m not sure what else they really have. The Ahsoka show looks good, but it also seems like it’s 99% for the Clone Wars/Rebels crowd, which is a much smaller percentage of the Star Wars fan base than I once thought. Indy flopped. Their animated movies between Pixar and their own studio are flopping as well. They need to make some serious creative changes. I’ve been watching the MCU closely because of doing podcasts. Really the only bad, bad products have stacked up lately, but after the big crescendo with Endgame, it lost its mojo. Shangchi, the Eternals, etc were not bad movies, just the characters are flat. Characterization is definitely a problem. I was surprised at the praise Shang Chi got because that character has absolutely no inner conflict or depth. The great writing behind Stark and Cap is what carried Phase 1-3. Dr Strange is, in my opinion, the only complex well developed character they have right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 16:24:31 GMT
They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking. But they have the potential to transcend these limits that you believe they have. They might have different parameters of reality. That doesn’t negate their capability of being excellent literature. Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children won the Booker prize. The world of literature doesn’t seem to think that the science fiction genre is outside of great literature. You will never concede that your logic is faulty. But it is. There’s unfortunately a lot of people who believe that stories with fantastical elements are inherently inferior. The trick, aside from quality writing of course, is to make the viewer buy into that world. A little camp or surrealism doesn’t make something worth less than something completely grounded. Sadly even most studios don’t understand this anymore so you get Marvel and Star Wars treating their campier elements like a joke and all those Oscar bait movies treating gritty ultra realism like it automatically compensates for hollow writing. It’s a sad state of affairs
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 16:36:18 GMT
Even if such conditions were necessary for the superhero genre, they don’t limit the possibilities of storytelling integrity. They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking. Depends how you define “great filmmaking”. Fellowship of the Ring has elves and magic yet it’s one of the greatest films ever made. Fantasy and pulp are not obstacles if you embrace them. Of course Ant Man movies will never be ranked alongside Casablanca and Citizen Kane or win Best Picture but that’s not a limitation because that would never be the goal for someone making an Ant Man movie. Quality of writing and filmmaking are completely irrelevant to that and therefore there’s no reason to lower the bar.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 18:21:18 GMT
They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking. But they have the potential to transcend these limits that you believe they have. They might have different parameters of reality. That doesn’t negate their capability of being excellent literature. Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children won the Booker prize. The world of literature doesn’t seem to think that the science fiction genre is outside of great literature. You will never concede that your logic is faulty. But it is.Of all hundreds of comic books movies/TV already, none have transcended its limit and I explained to you why. If they have them you list them. I also gave you an example of one comic book film I think does transcend its genre, Joker. There is no logic needed here because this is my opinion on a subjective experience, not a logic exercise.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 18:23:40 GMT
They hinder it by design. Like comics are not meant as literature, neither are comic book movies meant as great filmmaking. Depends how you define “great filmmaking”. Fellowship of the Ring has elves and magic yet it’s one of the greatest films ever made. Fantasy and pulp are not obstacles if you embrace them. Of course Ant Man movies will never be ranked alongside Casablanca and Citizen Kane or win Best Picture but that’s not a limitation because that would never be the goal for someone making an Ant Man movie. Quality of writing and filmmaking are completely irrelevant to that and therefore there’s no reason to lower the bar. How is that possible?
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 18:29:03 GMT
But they have the potential to transcend these limits that you believe they have. They might have different parameters of reality. That doesn’t negate their capability of being excellent literature. Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children won the Booker prize. The world of literature doesn’t seem to think that the science fiction genre is outside of great literature. You will never concede that your logic is faulty. But it is. There’s unfortunately a lot of people who believe that stories with fantastical elements are inherently inferior. The trick, aside from quality writing of course, is to make the viewer buy into that world. A little camp or surrealism doesn’t make something worth less than something completely grounded. Sadly even most studios don’t understand this anymore so you get Marvel and Star Wars treating their campier elements like a joke and all those Oscar bait movies treating gritty ultra realism like it automatically compensates for hollow writing. It’s a sad state of affairs They are not inferior in any way. But genre writing or filmmaking is just that, it must follows a formula; there are only a few plot lines that are rehashed over and over; and there is over saturation.
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