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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 18:30:09 GMT
Depends how you define “great filmmaking”. Fellowship of the Ring has elves and magic yet it’s one of the greatest films ever made. Fantasy and pulp are not obstacles if you embrace them. Of course Ant Man movies will never be ranked alongside Casablanca and Citizen Kane or win Best Picture but that’s not a limitation because that would never be the goal for someone making an Ant Man movie. Quality of writing and filmmaking are completely irrelevant to that and therefore there’s no reason to lower the bar. How is that possible? I think you misunderstood that line. What I mean is, you can have an extremely well written and well made action adventure, fantasy or comic movie of an extremely high quality. Look at Jaws or Raiders. Extremely well made movies with impeccable screenplays and masterful directing. Just because they are genre movies doesn’t limit their potential to be classic well made films. Will they be on the level of Citizen Kane? No. It’s apples and oranges. So that’s no excuse for the lazy low quality storytelling of recent comic book franchises. Compare them to the best of their genre, rather than classics of a different style entirely, and they still fail.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 18:33:20 GMT
There’s unfortunately a lot of people who believe that stories with fantastical elements are inherently inferior. The trick, aside from quality writing of course, is to make the viewer buy into that world. A little camp or surrealism doesn’t make something worth less than something completely grounded. Sadly even most studios don’t understand this anymore so you get Marvel and Star Wars treating their campier elements like a joke and all those Oscar bait movies treating gritty ultra realism like it automatically compensates for hollow writing. It’s a sad state of affairs They are not inferior in any way. But genre writing or filmmaking is just that, it must follows a formula; there are only a few plot lines that are rehashed over and over; and there is over saturation. True. But that has been the case since before either of us was born. Hero’s Journey story telling is as old as human civilization. The problem is the lack of quality. And there are also ways to mix things up and keep the genre fresh but Marvel insists on their formula, which goes beyond the tropes and limits of the genre, extending to bland copy/paste tone and bland visual style. Corporate soullessness is killing the genre, not its inherent limitations- which on their own, do not prevent the films from being a higher quality. These movies don’t have to transcend the genre to be successful. They simply have to be good.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 18:53:20 GMT
I think you misunderstood that line. What I mean is, you can have an extremely well written and well made action adventure, fantasy or comic movie of an extremely high quality. Look at Jaws or Raiders. Extremely well made movies with impeccable screenplays and masterful direction. Genre tropes don’t correlate to lower quality as you suggest. Just because they are genre movies doesn’t limit their potential to be classic well made films. It’s apples and oranges. But it’s also worth noting that films like Casablanca do still follow classic tropes, archetypes and story structure. So you could say every story is “limited”. But those limits are not restricting if the quality is there. Not lower quality, but it is constricted just like any other genre. I guess my real defense for my opinion here is, virtually no comic book genre movie has over came its genre yet. There is no comic book film that I’ve seen multiplied times and came away with something new from it. Maybe you have some, if so what are they and why do you think so? I’m sure there are some movies you seen more than once and maybe had a totally different viewing experience or gained a new insight each time. This is what I’m talking about. I am not saying any of these movie can’t transcend their genre, nor am I saying these films can’t be entertaining, beloved, and wind up a national treasure, but 99.99% of them are not that complex.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 18:57:19 GMT
I think you misunderstood that line. What I mean is, you can have an extremely well written and well made action adventure, fantasy or comic movie of an extremely high quality. Look at Jaws or Raiders. Extremely well made movies with impeccable screenplays and masterful direction. Genre tropes don’t correlate to lower quality as you suggest. Just because they are genre movies doesn’t limit their potential to be classic well made films. It’s apples and oranges. But it’s also worth noting that films like Casablanca do still follow classic tropes, archetypes and story structure. So you could say every story is “limited”. But those limits are not restricting if the quality is there. Not lower quality, but it is constricted just like any other. I guess my real defense for my opinion here is, virtually no comic book genre movie has over came its genre yet, because there is comic book film that I’ve multiplied times and came away with something new from it. Im sure there are some movies you seen more than once and maybe had a totally different viewing experience each time. I am not saying any of these movie can’t transcend their genre, nor am I saying these films can’t be more entertaining, beloved, and wind up a national treasure, but 99.99% they are not that complex. Well sure. But I’m not arguing that. I’m simply saying they don’t have to transcend their genre to be classics in their own right. Don’t compare them to Citizen Kane. That’s unfair. Compare them instead to the heights of their genre. Example: Thor 4 and Ant Man 3 pale in comparison even to Black Panther or the first Iron Man. That’s why the genre is dying.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 27, 2023 19:01:08 GMT
Not lower quality, but it is constricted just like any other. I guess my real defense for my opinion here is, virtually no comic book genre movie has over came its genre yet, because there is comic book film that I’ve multiplied times and came away with something new from it. Im sure there are some movies you seen more than once and maybe had a totally different viewing experience each time. I am not saying any of these movie can’t transcend their genre, nor am I saying these films can’t be more entertaining, beloved, and wind up a national treasure, but 99.99% they are not that complex. Well sure. But I’m not arguing that. I’m simply saying they don’t have to transcend their genre to be classics in their own right. Don’t compare them to Citizen Kane. That’s unfair. Compare them instead to the heights of their genre. Example: Thor 4 and Ant Man 3 pale in comparison even to Black Panther or the first Iron Man. That’s why the genre is dying. Absolutely, I agree. But any genre that has to walk on pies to please its fandom ain’t going to make many high quality films.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 19:06:28 GMT
Well sure. But I’m not arguing that. I’m simply saying they don’t have to transcend their genre to be classics in their own right. Don’t compare them to Citizen Kane. That’s unfair. Compare them instead to the heights of their genre. Example: Thor 4 and Ant Man 3 pale in comparison even to Black Panther or the first Iron Man. That’s why the genre is dying. Absolutely, I agree. But any genre that has to walk on pies to please its fandom ain’t going to make many high quality films. I don’t see how the fans are to blame. GotG vol 3 was clearly celebrated because it felt like an actual filmmaker made it. As opposed to Ant Man 3 and Flash which were corporate dumpster fires of bad ideas and bad directing.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jul 27, 2023 19:49:27 GMT
But they have the potential to transcend these limits that you believe they have. They might have different parameters of reality. That doesn’t negate their capability of being excellent literature. Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children won the Booker prize. The world of literature doesn’t seem to think that the science fiction genre is outside of great literature. You will never concede that your logic is faulty. But it is.Of all hundreds of comic books movies/TV already, none have transcended its limit and I explained to you why. If they have them you list them. I also gave you an example of one comic book film I think does transcend its genre, Joker. There is no logic needed here because this is my opinion on a subjective experience, not a logic exercise. 🙃
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Post by anwar on Jul 29, 2023 1:19:59 GMT
I’ve been watching the MCU closely because of doing podcasts. Really the only bad, bad products have stacked up lately, but after the big crescendo with Endgame, it lost its mojo. Shangchi, the Eternals, etc were not bad movies, just the characters are flat. Characterization is definitely a problem. I was surprised at the praise Shang Chi got because that character has absolutely no inner conflict or depth. The great writing behind Stark and Cap is what carried Phase 1-3. Dr Strange is, in my opinion, the only complex well developed character they have right now. He has as much depth as Steve did in his first movie.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2023 18:04:21 GMT
Characterization is definitely a problem. I was surprised at the praise Shang Chi got because that character has absolutely no inner conflict or depth. The great writing behind Stark and Cap is what carried Phase 1-3. Dr Strange is, in my opinion, the only complex well developed character they have right now. He has as much depth as Steve did in his first movie. No he doesn’t. Cap was a Flat Arc character. Shang Chi has no arc at all. But I don’t expect someone like you to understand the difference.
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Post by anwar on Jul 30, 2023 21:37:11 GMT
He has as much depth as Steve did in his first movie. No he doesn’t. Cap was a Flat Arc character. Shang Chi has no arc at all. But I don’t expect someone like you to understand the difference. Nope, the same. I'm not surprised about these double standards considering how there was a massive backlash against Shang-Chi getting a movie at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 23:17:16 GMT
No he doesn’t. Cap was a Flat Arc character. Shang Chi has no arc at all. But I don’t expect someone like you to understand the difference. Nope, the same. I'm not surprised about these double standards considering how there was a massive backlash against Shang-Chi getting a movie at all. I’m not surprised you don’t understand basic character arcs. You proved on the other thread that you don’t even know what an antagonist is.
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Post by anwar on Jul 31, 2023 2:07:22 GMT
Nope, the same. I'm not surprised about these double standards considering how there was a massive backlash against Shang-Chi getting a movie at all. I’m not surprised you don’t understand basic character arcs. You proved on the other thread that you don’t even know what an antagonist is. I know double standards, how you're fine with Steve having none but deny Shang Chi had his where he stops running from the family he renounced and tries (unsuccessfully) to save his father from letting his obsession consume him. Rather unconventional actually.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2023 2:10:38 GMT
I’m not surprised you don’t understand basic character arcs. You proved on the other thread that you don’t even know what an antagonist is. I know double standards, how you're fine with Steve having none but deny Shang Chi had his where he stops running from the family he renounced and tries (unsuccessfully) to save his father from letting his obsession consume him. Rather unconventional actually. I see. You’re one of the “fans” who didn’t want Steve to get a movie at all. Typical.
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Post by Nalkarj on Jul 31, 2023 3:12:25 GMT
Any pulp genre is limited. Comic book narratives generally are written for kids because that was the original target audience. And you don’t believe that it can transcend such limitations? I think it can. But even if I didn’t, I’m sure that most believe that superhero films can be off a high quality. The kind of quality of say, CA:TWS. If the MCU was constantly of such quality then it would be intriguing for a very large audience.Now Disney has produced nothing but garbage for years. In such a scenario, how can you argue that the quantity is the issue? If they released such garbage over a small amount of time, the effect wouldn’t be to the positive. Both my parents, not superhero-movie fans at all (the last superhero movie my mom had liked was probably Iron Man; the last one my dad had liked was, maybe, the Christopher Reeve Superman), liked Winter Soldier. In fact, my mother saw it recently and (knowing I’d seen most of the Marvel movies, at least the earlier ones) told me she was surprised at how much she was interested in the characters, action, and plot. She particularly liked the elevator scene. Apropos of this thread, my parents weren’t comparing Winter Soldier to Casablanca—they just saw it as a well-made, fun action flick. As indeed it is, superhero or no superhero.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jul 31, 2023 3:37:51 GMT
Perhaps most indicative of how obsolete the MCU is now is that I used to avoid these SPOILER threads like the plague until I’d seen the given movie or TV show.
Now I just scroll to see the reactions piled on. And almost not a single one is ever positive. I never hear a single good thing.
It’s always 90% saying something sucked; 10% trying to defend it with insane mental gymnastics.
Get new writers!
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