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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 19, 2023 12:02:22 GMT
I wonder what it is they feel they need to be forgiven for. Sounds like a guilt complex to me and then the action of believing in a saviour that will absolve them just by the belief, means they don’t have to take any personal accountability. I totally get the guilt aspect of it. We've all made mistakes, though I think that "sin" is a rather out-dated way of looking at it. Three things make absolutely no sense to me: 1) We're all cursed by the original sin of Adam. 2) Death is a consequence of sin. 3) Even given that we're convicted and to be penalized for that sin, it's nonsense for someone else to serve out your sentence so you don't have to. These three items are contrary to anything experienced in the real world. One must appeal to some kind of otherworldly conditions, outside the realm of normal human experience, to accept these premises. So far I haven't heard a compelling reason to do so. The idea that a crime affects offspring into the indefinite future is harsh and contrary to any legal code, including ancient ones. The idea that death is a consequence of sin doesn't mesh with all animals being mortal. Animals are supposed to lack discernment so they're incapable of sin and thus ought to be off the hook. The idea that someone could serve as a proxy for one's crimes is absurd legally. At no place any time has it been possible to have my dear sweet auntie serve out any jail term for any crimes that I am convicted for. Guilt is often something we feel, if we are capable of tapping into our conscience. Even then, guilt is something others may force onto us, regardless of the behavior engaged in. Legalities see guilt as either this or that b&w ideology and that is not always the case for many. There are psychopathic personalities that may not feel guilt. Many of these are the head of the institutions like religion and justice, that tell others they need to feel the guilt and only because they can't experience having a conscience themselves. Torment is only born of suffering and suffering is born of mindlessness and ignorance. Suffering is then inflicted onto others, by those that are morally broken to the core. Many of those that claim to believe in a savior like Christ, wouldn't really.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 19, 2023 12:04:26 GMT
Do these Protestants then assume they are not sinners and won’t be going to hell? I can't speak to what all Protestants assume. I doubt they all assume the same thing though. They wouldn't, but what they identify with/as, still leaves them a little credibility.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 19, 2023 12:06:37 GMT
Not all Protestants practice "Born Again" salvation. BA salvation is what Billy Graham and TV preachers preach, that is, to be Saved you have to realize you are a sinner and make a conscious decision to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior (disclaimer: I am only explaining this as a former - now outsider - of Born Again-ism so don't go after me because of this nonsense). These are the evangelizing christians like Pentecostals and Baptists. Other protestant groups, esp. those whose histories derive directly from Catholicism (e.g. Episcopalians and Lutherans) do not preach the need to be Born Again. I don't know if any of them would express it in exactly this way, but it is more like, the personal decision you must make is to openly reject Jesus but even then, well, the question of Hell is best avoided all together. Otherwise, you belong to God. If I had to choose any sect, it would be those I would pick. I never got that will all the suffering that humans inflict on each other and the hellish experiences that can be created as a consequence, that hell outside of human hell, is something that is still considered as valid within the religious belief.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 19, 2023 22:52:45 GMT
Not all Protestants practice "Born Again" salvation. BA salvation is what Billy Graham and TV preachers preach, that is, to be Saved you have to realize you are a sinner and make a conscious decision to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior (disclaimer: I am only explaining this as a former - now outsider - of Born Again-ism so don't go after me because of this nonsense). These are the evangelizing christians like Pentecostals and Baptists. Other protestant groups, esp. those whose histories derive directly from Catholicism (e.g. Episcopalians and Lutherans) do not preach the need to be Born Again. I don't know if any of them would express it in exactly this way, but it is more like, the personal decision you must make is to openly reject Jesus but even then, well, the question of Hell is best avoided all together. Otherwise, you belong to God. If I had to choose any sect, it would be those I would pick. I never got that will all the suffering that humans inflict on each other and the hellish experiences that can be created as a consequence, that hell outside of human hell, is something that is still considered as valid within the religious belief. That’s probably why it is depicted in the Christian consciousness, if not in the Bible itself, as even more horrific than human violence. Humans can only torture each other for long until we become exhausted, the demons can do it for all eternity. That this incredibly sadistic realm is not in the Bible, why do Christians insist it exists? It’s confounding, but a great motivator to control people.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 22, 2023 2:16:37 GMT
I never got that will all the suffering that humans inflict on each other and the hellish experiences that can be created as a consequence, that hell outside of human hell, is something that is still considered as valid within the religious belief. That’s probably why it is depicted in the Christian consciousness, if not in the Bible itself, as even more horrific than human violence. Humans can only torture each other for long until we become exhausted, the demons can do it for all eternity. That this incredibly sadistic realm is not in the Bible, why do Christians insist it exists? It’s confounding, but a great motivator to control people. It is only tortured people that will insist upon it. The mental torture and disorders they experience isn't being dealt with.
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Post by clusium on Jul 24, 2023 19:36:24 GMT
Not just Protestant doctrine. ALL Christian doctrine. Catholics, Protestants & Orthodox all teach this. Many Christian sects also believe in a Purgatory, though they differ on what it is and how it works. I believe Islam also has a version of Purgatory. Hell was the Greek and Gentile influence on early Christians, bringing the concept of Hades into Christianity. Jews didn't believe in that kind of afterlife, and neither would have Jesus or his disciples. No, the ancient Jews had a similar belief in the afterlife as the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc. That is why according to Christian belief, nobody entered Heaven until Christ Died. After that, access to Heaven was open to all the righteous souls that died BC.
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Post by Meseia on Jul 27, 2023 7:48:35 GMT
Many Christian sects also believe in a Purgatory, though they differ on what it is and how it works. I believe Islam also has a version of Purgatory. Hell was the Greek and Gentile influence on early Christians, bringing the concept of Hades into Christianity. Jews didn't believe in that kind of afterlife, and neither would have Jesus or his disciples. No, the ancient Jews had a similar belief in the afterlife as the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc. That is why according to Christian belief, nobody entered Heaven until Christ Died. After that, access to Heaven was open to all the righteous souls that died BC. It was the Zoroastrians and Greeks that introduced the concept of Hell. Modern Christianity would seem foreign to Jesus, he wouldn't understand it. Edit, I refer to you an expert in the subject, Dr James Tabor. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Taborwww.youtube.com/@jamestaborvideosHere is a video that covers this subject specifically
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 28, 2023 3:39:57 GMT
No, the ancient Jews had a similar belief in the afterlife as the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc. That is why according to Christian belief, nobody entered Heaven until Christ Died. After that, access to Heaven was open to all the righteous souls that died BC. It was the Zoroastrians and Greeks that introduced the concept of Hell. Modern Christianity would seem foreign to Jesus, he wouldn't understand it. Edit, I refer to you an expert in the subject, Dr James Tabor. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Taborwww.youtube.com/@jamestaborvideosHere is a video that covers this subject specifically He wouldn’t understand Christianity pronto. It wasn’t what he was about.
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Post by Meseia on Aug 4, 2023 2:31:55 GMT
He wouldn’t understand Christianity pronto. It wasn’t what he was about. Jesus lived 2000 years ago, not 20 years ago, big difference. Christianity is one of the Jewish apocalyptic sects. Christianity grew from Hebrew/Jewish beliefs. The first Christians were Jews. There are almost no modern Christian sects that completely agree on an interpretation of the Bible and there is a big difference between what is said at the pulpit and the actual history of Christianity. Christianity has survived because it has always been incredibly adaptable to varying political environments, embracing pagan customs, and incorporating heathen beliefs. Christianity now would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his apostles.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Aug 4, 2023 2:44:50 GMT
He wouldn’t understand Christianity pronto. It wasn’t what he was about. Jesus lived 2000 years ago, not 20 years ago, big difference. Christianity is one of the Jewish apocalyptic sects. Christianity grew from Hebrew/Jewish beliefs. The first Christians were Jews. There are almost no modern Christian sects that completely agree on an interpretation of the Bible and there is a big difference between what is said at the pulpit and the actual history of Christianity. Christianity has survived because it has always been incredibly adaptable to varying political environments, embracing pagan customs, and incorporating heathen beliefs. Christianity now would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his apostles.
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Post by Meseia on Aug 4, 2023 3:54:08 GMT
Jesus lived 2000 years ago, not 20 years ago, big difference. Christianity is one of the Jewish apocalyptic sects. Christianity grew from Hebrew/Jewish beliefs. The first Christians were Jews. There are almost no modern Christian sects that completely agree on an interpretation of the Bible and there is a big difference between what is said at the pulpit and the actual history of Christianity. Christianity has survived because it has always been incredibly adaptable to varying political environments, embracing pagan customs, and incorporating heathen beliefs. Christianity now would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his apostles. Sure. Decades passed before there were any known writings about Jesus and memories would have faded, specifics lost, stories reinterpreted during the war with Rome and rapidly changing political events of the first century.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Aug 4, 2023 4:08:17 GMT
Sure. Decades passed before there were any known writings about Jesus and memories would have faded, specifics lost, stories reinterpreted during the war with Rome and rapidly changing political events of the first century. True, however it’s Paul who captures the meal memorial the first Christians were practicing. I don’t think he made it up. I think this is the jumping point for the gospel writers to later build a god-like messiah with a sacrificed human and bodily resurrection, something anathema in mainstream 1st c. Judaism, has a potent magical component that would attract pagans.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Aug 4, 2023 5:10:04 GMT
He wouldn’t understand Christianity pronto. It wasn’t what he was about. Jesus lived 2000 years ago, not 20 years ago, big difference. Christianity is one of the Jewish apocalyptic sects. Christianity grew from Hebrew/Jewish beliefs. The first Christians were Jews. There are almost no modern Christian sects that completely agree on an interpretation of the Bible and there is a big difference between what is said at the pulpit and the actual history of Christianity. Christianity has survived because it has always been incredibly adaptable to varying political environments, embracing pagan customs, and incorporating heathen beliefs. Christianity now would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his apostles. Jesus wasn’t a Christian when he and his apostles were allegedly alive, so I’m not sure what your point is. The term “Christian/Christianity” was only devised after his death.
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Post by Meseia on Aug 7, 2023 5:53:07 GMT
Jesus lived 2000 years ago, not 20 years ago, big difference. Christianity is one of the Jewish apocalyptic sects. Christianity grew from Hebrew/Jewish beliefs. The first Christians were Jews. There are almost no modern Christian sects that completely agree on an interpretation of the Bible and there is a big difference between what is said at the pulpit and the actual history of Christianity. Christianity has survived because it has always been incredibly adaptable to varying political environments, embracing pagan customs, and incorporating heathen beliefs. Christianity now would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his apostles. Jesus wasn’t a Christian when he and his apostles were allegedly alive, so I’m not sure what your point is. The term “Christian/Christianity” was only devised after his death. I think you get the point.
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Post by Meseia on Aug 7, 2023 5:58:43 GMT
Sure. Decades passed before there were any known writings about Jesus and memories would have faded, specifics lost, stories reinterpreted during the war with Rome and rapidly changing political events of the first century. True, however it’s Paul who captures the meal memorial the first Christians were practicing. I don’t think he made it up. I think this is the jumping point for the gospel writers to later build a god-like messiah with a sacrificed human and bodily resurrection, something anathema in mainstream 1st c. Judaism, has a potent magical component that would attract pagans. I find myself going back and forth on Paul. There are certainly many who agree with you that he wasn't making it up, but he clearly did make up large portions of Christianity with respect to Gentiles and Jesus' failure to return.
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