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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 15, 2023 6:53:12 GMT
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Post by Meseia on Jul 15, 2023 8:52:05 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 15, 2023 12:48:10 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell. Do these Protestants then assume they are not sinners and won’t be going to hell?
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2023 15:20:15 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell. Not just Protestant doctrine. ALL Christian doctrine. Catholics, Protestants & Orthodox all teach this.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jul 15, 2023 17:32:35 GMT
Supposedly to save human souls from damnation after he damned them to begin with.
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Post by general313 on Jul 16, 2023 17:52:24 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell. Do these Protestants then assume they are not sinners and won’t be going to hell? They assume they aren't going to hell not because they aren't sinners but because they believe their sins are forgiven.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 17, 2023 2:35:12 GMT
Do these Protestants then assume they are not sinners and won’t be going to hell? They assume they aren't going to hell not because they aren't sinners but because they believe their sins are forgiven. I wonder what it is they feel they need to be forgiven for. Sounds like a guilt complex to me and then the action of believing in a saviour that will absolve them just by the belief, means they don’t have to take any personal accountability.
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Post by SixOfTheRichest on Jul 17, 2023 2:35:48 GMT
Supposedly to save human souls from damnation after he damned them to begin with. Damn fine God they got there.
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Post by general313 on Jul 17, 2023 14:40:33 GMT
They assume they aren't going to hell not because they aren't sinners but because they believe their sins are forgiven. I wonder what it is they feel they need to be forgiven for. Sounds like a guilt complex to me and then the action of believing in a saviour that will absolve them just by the belief, means they don’t have to take any personal accountability. I totally get the guilt aspect of it. We've all made mistakes, though I think that "sin" is a rather out-dated way of looking at it. Three things make absolutely no sense to me: 1) We're all cursed by the original sin of Adam. 2) Death is a consequence of sin. 3) Even given that we're convicted and to be penalized for that sin, it's nonsense for someone else to serve out your sentence so you don't have to. These three items are contrary to anything experienced in the real world. One must appeal to some kind of otherworldly conditions, outside the realm of normal human experience, to accept these premises. So far I haven't heard a compelling reason to do so. The idea that a crime affects offspring into the indefinite future is harsh and contrary to any legal code, including ancient ones. The idea that death is a consequence of sin doesn't mesh with all animals being mortal. Animals are supposed to lack discernment so they're incapable of sin and thus ought to be off the hook. The idea that someone could serve as a proxy for one's crimes is absurd legally. At no place any time has it been possible to have my dear sweet auntie serve out any jail term for any crimes that I am convicted for.
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Post by stammerhead on Jul 17, 2023 20:57:06 GMT
A: Because he is The Chosen One B: From whatever it is that will happen to us if we don’t accept him as The Chosen One.
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Post by Meseia on Jul 17, 2023 22:19:26 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell. Do these Protestants then assume they are not sinners and won’t be going to hell? I can't speak to what all Protestants assume. I doubt they all assume the same thing though.
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Post by Meseia on Jul 17, 2023 22:41:13 GMT
According to Protestant doctrine he is saving sinners from Hell. Not just Protestant doctrine. ALL Christian doctrine. Catholics, Protestants & Orthodox all teach this. Many Christian sects also believe in a Purgatory, though they differ on what it is and how it works. I believe Islam also has a version of Purgatory. Hell was the Greek and Gentile influence on early Christians, bringing the concept of Hades into Christianity. Jews didn't believe in that kind of afterlife, and neither would have Jesus or his disciples.
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Post by Meseia on Jul 17, 2023 22:44:11 GMT
Supposedly to save human souls from damnation after he damned them to begin with. Damn fine God they got there. Ancient peoples understood the world is unfair and that gods were fickle.
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Post by mikef6 on Jul 18, 2023 13:44:01 GMT
Not all Protestants practice "Born Again" salvation. BA salvation is what Billy Graham and TV preachers preach, that is, to be Saved you have to realize you are a sinner and make a conscious decision to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior (disclaimer: I am only explaining this as a former - now outsider - of Born Again-ism so don't go after me because of this nonsense). These are the evangelizing christians like Pentecostals and Baptists. Other protestant groups, esp. those whose histories derive directly from Catholicism (e.g. Episcopalians and Lutherans) do not preach the need to be Born Again. I don't know if any of them would express it in exactly this way, but it is more like, the personal decision you must make is to openly reject Jesus but even then, well, the question of Hell is best avoided all together. Otherwise, you belong to God. If I had to choose any sect, it would be those I would pick.
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Post by Meseia on Jul 19, 2023 0:14:02 GMT
Not all Protestants practice "Born Again" salvation. BA salvation is what Billy Graham and TV preachers preach, that is, to be Saved you have to realize you are a sinner and make a conscious decision to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior (disclaimer: I am only explaining this as a former - now outsider - of Born Again-ism so don't go after me because of this nonsense). These are the evangelizing christians like Pentecostals and Baptists. Other protestant groups, esp. those whose histories derive directly from Catholicism (e.g. Episcopalians and Lutherans) do not preach the need to be Born Again. I don't know if any of them would express it in exactly this way, but it is more like, the personal decision you must make is to openly reject Jesus but even then, well, the question of Hell is best avoided all together. Otherwise, you belong to God. If I had to choose any sect, it would be those I would pick. Interesting. It seems Lutherans believe that Jesus went to hell to "proclaim his victory over sin, death, hell, and the devil," who had already fallen and was imprisoned in Hell, not as a sacrifice. But they do require belief in Jesus to attain salvation so in the end is it just semantics? It supports views that the devil was not defeated by God and held a grip over mankind and sealed himself away from God. Jesus had to become a man-god, die (horribly for some reason), to get into hell and fight the devil. Sounds like the plot of a movie. We still run into the problem that Jesus wouldn't have believed in Hell and neither would Peter who allegedly made the claim about Jesus going to hell. If anything, it's more evidence that the Gospels were written by Greek educated scribes and incorporated Greek mythology to spice things up, or was made up whole cloth.
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