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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 6, 2023 17:41:54 GMT
Alright here here is where we start. Please keep it civil, politics free, spoiler free, and semi on topic. While we discuss one section we should be reading the next.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 6, 2023 17:50:26 GMT
Now open The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger, part 1 The Gunslinger. I'll start I guess with this... This book started in King's mind when he was in college years before he hit it big with Carrie. He had other books swirling around in his brain since High School. Some of Rage was actually written in High School. He knew The Gunslinger (and the longer story) was different. He knew that at that age when the story idea started to coalesce he would basically be rewriting The Lord of the Rings. So he waited. He grew and then went back. This story was sold to The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction in late 70's. It was split into 5 stories. The same stories sectioned off we are reading. I just merged the last 2. Ok lets talk about a few Elephants in the room. The Story Format. This Format might be the most unique for King? Not in the voice, like in Black House where the Omniscient Narrator talks directly to the audience. Or in style like Carrie where the plot is supported by Newspaper articles, scientific journal entries, government proceeding logs etc. (Sorta like Bram Stoker's Dracula). Or Delores Claiborne with is a 1st Person's Log telling her back story to a Court/Cop/DA. This is more like Gerald's Game which the present's plot is strongly pushed by flash backs. You start in the Present with Roland in Mohaine Desert. He falls asleep. His dream forces us into the first Flashback to Farmer Brown. His dinner with Brown takes us into the 1st Flashback inside the Flashback (ie 2nd flashback) into Tull. Inside the flashback inside the flashback we have a 3rd flashback. Allie telling the story of the Man in Black resurrecting Nort. After the end of Battle of Tull we come out of all the flash back nesting back to Roland Sleeping. I hope this nesting didn't fuck people up to much. Trust me before he revised the book, to me that nesting was handled a lot more clunkily. Second Elephant in the room The Man in Black's resurrecting of Nort. The way he did it was retarded, lol. I think the spitting was a nod to the Evil Eye Spitting. The Jumping/Flips/Jack Knifes to me is supposed to show the Man in Black's Jester/Tittering/Playful side. I'll let bartlesby lead this discussion :) Third Elephant in the room Roland might have a little bit of a chubby kink. He thought Sylivia Piston's 300lb frame was fucking hot. Forth Elephant in the room You might not know some words. Most gets defined pretty well during the story. I'll just offer up a few. Khef has multiple meanings. He mentions the different levels of it allowing him to look at his thirst detached. In the vulgate Khef means life/Life Force or just water. In the High Speech it means the "Water of Life." A more philosophical discipline. In the line where he mentions levels he is talking about the discipline. It's like Shingon Buhdists in real life that literally can starve themselves. The Manni is mentioned in this line. They are a group of people that can/do Practice this philosophy. High Speech the language of upper class of Roland's Homeland. It's formed by the Great Letters. (ie a complicated alphabet) Gunna means your shit/gear basically. Bow is Bow and Arrow. Bah is a cross bow. Bucca is buck wagon. Taheen is a specific race of humanoids that have animal heads. If there are other words/concepts you don't understand you can ask. So First impressions from newbies and from people who are reading this version for first time. Also those who have read what's it like getting back into this story? After this little bit house keeping I'll get more into discussing minutiae. The Trashcan Man bartlesby Foxy Boricanator ofunknownorigins Dracula bomtombadil tommyrockarolla TheGoodMan19 san926f 🐾 Molly 🐾
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Post by The Trashcan Man on Nov 6, 2023 18:06:35 GMT
What I noticed were a few things I missed or forgot about.
Having subsequently reading the whole series, I saw the first references to 'clouds heading southeast, into the dessert, as if drawn there. First hint of things to come. (Trying not to give spoilers)
Also the value of those flashbacks that are needed for context, and to figure out why this is all happening, and why Rowland is so obsessed.
The basis of this world, it's relationship with our world, suggests a time in the future, where something cataclysmic and supernature, has occurred. Old songs, old relics, a long past higher technology, animal mutations, time itself being warped and different.
I can see how getting into this story is really difficult, but it will evolve into an easier-to-follow, and more interesting story.
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Post by bartlesby on Nov 7, 2023 6:38:03 GMT
Gimme a day or so. I thought we were doing this on the 9th.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 7, 2023 19:54:40 GMT
What I noticed were a few things I missed or forgot about. Having subsequently reading the whole series, I saw the first references to 'clouds heading southeast, into the dessert, as if drawn there. First hint of things to come. (Trying not to give spoilers) Also the value of those flashbacks that are needed for context, and to figure out why this is all happening, and why Rowland is so abscessed. The basis of this world, it's relationship with our world, suggests a time in the future, where something cataclysmic and supernature, has occurred. Old songs, old relics, a long past higher technology, animal mutations, time itself being warped and different. I can see how getting into this story is really difficult, but it will evolve into an easier-to-follow, and more interesting story. Yeah the SE movement was added to Revised version. I always thought the nested flashbacks to be difficult for first time readers, but it is a way to get people into the world pretty quickly.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 7, 2023 19:55:59 GMT
Gimme a day or so. I thought we were doing this on the 9th. Monday to Monday opening things up. Doesn't have to be on the Monday it's just opened up then. Take your time.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 8, 2023 0:54:00 GMT
Ok I posted my problems, now lets talk about what is great about the story so far. First king establishes the feel of the world and the map of Roland's interior reality really quickly. Without spoilers, King establishes a base reality of a Western that's post apoctaliptic. And he doesn't really shove the apoctaliptic nature (or more fantastical) of the world down your throat. The inclusion of "Hey Jude," the Taheen looking for Blue Heaven, the Man in Black using Magic to resurrect Nort, and the Magic of 19 unleashing Hell in Allie's mind. It's lightly spiced :)
Here is THE major change from original to revised. In the original Allie didn't want to die. Her killing wasn't a mercy. She was a hostage and Roland just took her out, out of reflex. The Revised makes Roland a more likable character. In the original he wasn't a hero. He was more an anti-hero.
King has a very good knack of writing Religious Fanatics/Fervor really well. He's done it in other books/stories (The Mist comes to mind). Sylvia Pittston continues this tradition. It probably won't play well in say a movie, but in written form he nails it.
The Battle of Tull though shows that King can write action. I know he's not really known for that aspect, but that Fight with the bodies falling in a trail was great when I was 13 and still great when I am 46.
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Post by The Trashcan Man on Nov 8, 2023 14:52:45 GMT
Ok I posted my problems, now lets talk about what is great about the story so far. First king establishes the feel of the world and the map of Roland's interior reality really quickly. Without spoilers, King establishes a base reality of a Western that's post apoctaliptic. And he doesn't really shove the apoctaliptic nature (or more fantastical) of the world down your throat. The inclusion of "Hey Jude," the Taheen looking for Blue Heaven, the Man in Black using Magic to resurrect Nort, and the Magic of 19 unleashing Hell in Allie's mind. It's lightly spiced :) Here is THE major change from original to revised. In the original Allie didn't want to die. Her killing wasn't a mercy. She was a hostage and Roland just took her out, out of reflex. The Revised makes Roland a more likable character. In the original he wasn't a hero. He was more an anti-hero. King has a very good knack of writing Religious Fanatics/Fervor really well. He's done it in other books/stories (The Mist comes to mind). Sylvia Pittston continues this tradition. It probably won't play well in say a movie, but in written form he nails it. The Battle of Tull though shows that King can write action. I know he's not really known for that aspect, but that Fight with the bodies falling in a trail was great when I was 13 and still great when I am 46. I never watched the 2017 Dark Tower movie. Have you, and was it a disappointment?
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 8, 2023 16:43:06 GMT
Ok I posted my problems, now lets talk about what is great about the story so far. First king establishes the feel of the world and the map of Roland's interior reality really quickly. Without spoilers, King establishes a base reality of a Western that's post apoctaliptic. And he doesn't really shove the apoctaliptic nature (or more fantastical) of the world down your throat. The inclusion of "Hey Jude," the Taheen looking for Blue Heaven, the Man in Black using Magic to resurrect Nort, and the Magic of 19 unleashing Hell in Allie's mind. It's lightly spiced :) Here is THE major change from original to revised. In the original Allie didn't want to die. Her killing wasn't a mercy. She was a hostage and Roland just took her out, out of reflex. The Revised makes Roland a more likable character. In the original he wasn't a hero. He was more an anti-hero. King has a very good knack of writing Religious Fanatics/Fervor really well. He's done it in other books/stories (The Mist comes to mind). Sylvia Pittston continues this tradition. It probably won't play well in say a movie, but in written form he nails it. The Battle of Tull though shows that King can write action. I know he's not really known for that aspect, but that Fight with the bodies falling in a trail was great when I was 13 and still great when I am 46. I never watched the 2017 Dark Tower movie. Have you, and was it a disappointment? Yeah I've seen it. Watched it with my brother who hasn't read the series. Disappointment isn't strong enough. You can tell that the person who wrote/directed it actually read the series. The problem is they tried to put elements of 4+ the books into one movie. They then made Jake a teenager. Centered the movie on him making it a YA movie which was trending at the time. I remember people having a problem with Idris Elba because he was black. And I did too. Not because I'm racist, but because of relationship with another character you know who. Thing is Idris/Roland race was probably the least thing that was wrong. Matthew/Director's vision for Walter was retarded. And his magic was effortless. What ever he says people do. Also Roland has given up the tower and is only going after Walter to kill him. Roland is the embodiment of will/purpose to get to Tower. Having Jake give him the will to go to Tower was retarded. My brother thought it was disjointed having never read the series.
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Post by The Trashcan Man on Nov 8, 2023 16:59:24 GMT
I never watched the 2017 Dark Tower movie. Have you, and was it a disappointment? Yeah I've seen it. Watched it with my brother who hasn't read the series. Disappointment isn't strong enough. You can tell that the person who wrote/directed it actually read the series. The problem is they tried to put elements of 4+ the books into one movie. They then made Jake a teenager. Centered the movie on him making it a YA movie which was trending at the time. I remember people having a problem with Idris Elba because he was black. And I did too. Not because I'm racist, but because of relationship with another character you know who. Thing is Idris/Roland race was probably the least thing that was wrong. Matthew/Director's vision for Walter was retarded. And his magic was effortless. What ever he says people do. Also Roland has given up the tower and is only going after Walter to kill him. Roland is the embodiment of will/purpose to get to Tower. Having Jake give him the will to go to Tower was retarded. My brother thought it was disjointed having never read the series. I thought it would be disappointing. You simply can not make a movie or a series about these books. The story here is not a full time action, 'grab you from your seat and shake you' formula movie material.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 8, 2023 17:11:32 GMT
Yeah I've seen it. Watched it with my brother who hasn't read the series. Disappointment isn't strong enough. You can tell that the person who wrote/directed it actually read the series. The problem is they tried to put elements of 4+ the books into one movie. They then made Jake a teenager. Centered the movie on him making it a YA movie which was trending at the time. I remember people having a problem with Idris Elba because he was black. And I did too. Not because I'm racist, but because of relationship with another character you know who. Thing is Idris/Roland race was probably the least thing that was wrong. Matthew/Director's vision for Walter was retarded. And his magic was effortless. What ever he says people do. Also Roland has given up the tower and is only going after Walter to kill him. Roland is the embodiment of will/purpose to get to Tower. Having Jake give him the will to go to Tower was retarded. My brother thought it was disjointed having never read the series. I thought it would be disappointing. You simply can not make a movie or a series about these books. The story here is not a full time action, 'grab you from your seat and shake you' formula movie material. Mike Flannigan (The Fall of the House of Usher, The Haunting of Hill House, Midnight, Doctor Sleep, Gerald's Game) bought the rights to the series. He is famous for his ability to Show run. (Haunting and Midnight were series on Netflix). Personally he filmed/wrote a movie that I thought would never be able to be filmed Gerald's Game. Like 90% of that book was in Jessie's head, but he did. (and did a good job) Mike was meeting with actors before the strike. During the strike he started writing and creating the series bible. Right now the plan is 4 season series with 2 movies. The Movies will be filmed along side the series. think one movie in the middle and one at the end. I hven't seen where the movies are going to be the more actiony story lines but it would make since.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 16:45:35 GMT
What I noticed were a few things I missed or forgot about. Having subsequently reading the whole series, I saw the first references to 'clouds heading southeast, into the dessert, as if drawn there. First hint of things to come. (Trying not to give spoilers) Also the value of those flashbacks that are needed for context, and to figure out why this is all happening, and why Rowland is so abscessed. The basis of this world, it's relationship with our world, suggests a time in the future, where something cataclysmic and supernature, has occurred. Old songs, old relics, a long past higher technology, animal mutations, time itself being warped and different. I can see how getting into this story is really difficult, but it will evolve into an easier-to-follow, and more interesting story. That's one of the most intriguing things about this series for me. It's neo-western feel. How far 8nto the future after a cataclysmic event are they? To me it sounds like a nuclear event pretty much wiped out most of the population at some point, and this is life generations after. But how many years are we talking about? Was their world/civilization like our?
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Post by The Trashcan Man on Nov 10, 2023 17:09:04 GMT
What I noticed were a few things I missed or forgot about. Having subsequently reading the whole series, I saw the first references to 'clouds heading southeast, into the dessert, as if drawn there. First hint of things to come. (Trying not to give spoilers) Also the value of those flashbacks that are needed for context, and to figure out why this is all happening, and why Rowland is so abscessed. The basis of this world, it's relationship with our world, suggests a time in the future, where something cataclysmic and supernature, has occurred. Old songs, old relics, a long past higher technology, animal mutations, time itself being warped and different. I can see how getting into this story is really difficult, but it will evolve into an easier-to-follow, and more interesting story. That's one of the most intriguing things about this series for me. It's neo-western feel. How far 8nto the future after a cataclysmic event are they? To me it sounds like a nuclear event pretty much wiped out most of the population at some point, and this is life generations after. But how many years are we talking about? Was their world/civilization like our? That is revealed, somewhat, in later books.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 17:39:59 GMT
Now open The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger, part 1 The Gunslinger. I'll start I guess with this... This book started in King's mind when he was in college years before he hit it big with Carrie. He had other books swirling around in his brain since High School. Some of Rage was actually written in High School. He knew The Gunslinger (and the longer story) was different. He knew that at that age when the story idea started to coalesce he would basically be rewriting The Lord of the Rings. So he waited. He grew and then went back. This story was sold to The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction in late 70's. It was split into 5 stories. The same stories sectioned off we are reading. I just merged the last 2. Ok lets talk about a few Elephants in the room. The Story Format. This Format might be the most unique for King? Not in the voice, like in Black House where the Omniscient Narrator talks directly to the audience. Or in style like Carrie where the plot is supported by Newspaper articles, scientific journal entries, government proceeding logs etc. (Sorta like Bram Stoker's Dracula). Or Delores Claiborne with is a 1st Person's Log telling her back story to a Court/Cop/DA. This is more like Gerald's Game which the present's plot is strongly pushed by flash backs. You start in the Present with Roland in Mohaine Desert. He falls asleep. His dream forces us into the first Flashback to Farmer Brown. His dinner with Brown takes us into the 1st Flashback inside the Flashback (ie 2nd flashback) into Tull. Inside the flashback inside the flashback we have a 3rd flashback. Allie telling the story of the Man in Black resurrecting Nort. After the end of Battle of Tull we come out of all the flash back nesting back to Roland Sleeping. I hope this nesting didn't fuck people up to much. Trust me before he revised the book, to me that nesting was handled a lot more clunkily. Second Elephant in the room The Man in Black's resurrecting of Nort. The way he did it was retarded, lol. I think the spitting was a nod to the Evil Eye Spitting. The Jumping/Flips/Jack Knifes to me is supposed to show the Man in Black's Jester/Tittering/Playful side. I'll let bartlesby lead this discussion :) Third Elephant in the room Roland might have a little bit of a chubby kink. He thought Sylivia Piston's 300lb frame was fucking hot. Forth Elephant in the room You might not know some words. Most gets defined pretty well during the story. I'll just offer up a few. Khef has multiple meanings. He mentions the different levels of it allowing him to look at his thirst detached. In the vulgate Khef means life/Life Force or just water. In the High Speech it means the "Water of Life." A more philosophical discipline. In the line where he mentions levels he is talking about the discipline. It's like Shingon Buhdists in real life that literally can starve themselves. The Manni is mentioned in this line. They are a group of people that can/do Practice this philosophy. High Speech the language of upper class of Roland's Homeland. It's formed by the Great Letters. (ie a complicated alphabet) Gunna means your shit/gear basically. Bow is Bow and Arrow. Bah is a cross bow. Bucca is buck wagon. Taheen is a specific race of humanoids that have animal heads. If there are other words/concepts you don't understand you can ask. So First impressions from newbies and from people who are reading this version for first time. Also those who have read what's it like getting back into this story? After this little bit house keeping I'll get more into discussing minutiae. The Trashcan Man bartlesby Foxy Boricanator ofunknownorigins Dracula bomtombadil tommyrockarolla TheGoodMan19 san926f 🐾 Molly 🐾 You're missing the point with Sylvia. She was alluring because she represented everything that part of the world wasn't: Gravid, lush, nourished. Her skin was described as pale and creamy in an envrionment where people toil in hot, dry dirt under the sun, and struggle to create the life of their crops. It's a world where water is a commodity and everything is dry and sun-beaten, including the people. Her 300 pound frame was a part of her allure because, like the statues of fertility goddesses, in this world it represented abundance, and health, and wealth. It's why she was a perfect vessel for Walter's demon seed. Thirst, in its many forms, is a theme that is established in the beginning of the book. We see it in it's classic definition when Roland talks several times about becoming dehydrated. And thirst as unquenchable desire is seen in the womem of Tull, with Allie, the farmer's daughter, and Sylvia herself (and not to get ahead of myself, but King uses the "thirst" in female desire as a plot device in multiple ways). I think it's a reflection of Roland's obsession with the tower. It's become a part of him, but his obsession is also his weakness. I think when he brought Nort back, he was making fun of the whole situation. Making fun of death and the town people's reaction to it. So he did a bit of showmanship/a clown act when resurrecting him.
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 10, 2023 18:19:40 GMT
What I noticed were a few things I missed or forgot about. Having subsequently reading the whole series, I saw the first references to 'clouds heading southeast, into the dessert, as if drawn there. First hint of things to come. (Trying not to give spoilers) Also the value of those flashbacks that are needed for context, and to figure out why this is all happening, and why Rowland is so abscessed. The basis of this world, it's relationship with our world, suggests a time in the future, where something cataclysmic and supernature, has occurred. Old songs, old relics, a long past higher technology, animal mutations, time itself being warped and different. I can see how getting into this story is really difficult, but it will evolve into an easier-to-follow, and more interesting story. That's one of the most intriguing things about this series for me. It's neo-western feel. How far 8nto the future after a cataclysmic event are they? To me it sounds like a nuclear event pretty much wiped out most of the population at some point, and this is life generations after. But how many years are we talking about? Was their world/civilization like our? There do later say how much time has happened since Gilead fell and the World Moved on, but it's deceptive. It's not a spoiler that time and space is fucked up. The Sun sometimes doesn't set or rise exactly West or East... And Brown said Time is funny out here. So Time is elastic so the time they give between him leaving to track the Dark Man and arriving in Eluria, Pricetown to Tull... it could've been months, years, decades for him but from his perception it could be days... the distance could've grown too...
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