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Post by uncreative on Dec 13, 2023 17:28:33 GMT
There was never going to be another 9/11. They got lucky once. And if their goal was to get us to fuck ourselves in response then they were way more successful then even Bin Laden could have ever hoped for. Meanwhile the Taliban is still out there running Afghanistan after a 20 year campaign against them and we created all the conditions that allowed ISIS to exist for a while. It would likely never happen in the first place if US intelligence agencies had been sharing info with each other. 9/11 might have surprised us but it should've have come as a surprise given the amount of warnings received. Wasn't there a lot of ignored or failed intelligence n Israel leading up to 10/7 too? |
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Post by SciFive on Dec 13, 2023 17:30:50 GMT
It would likely never happen in the first place if US intelligence agencies had been sharing info with each other. 9/11 might have surprised us but it should've have come as a surprise given the amount of warnings received. Wasn't there a lot of ignored or failed intelligence n Israel leading up to 10/7 too? Israel believed that Hamas was moving away from wanting to go to war with Israel again because all the intel pointed to this.
Israel will never believe in Palestinian peacefulness ever again for the rest of time unless they reform and become truly western or something.
The two-state solution is dead as an absolute door nail until all the terrorists and their sympathizers are gone. Even then it won't happen.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Dec 13, 2023 17:42:23 GMT
That’s not justifying Hamas. You live in black and white world, where it’s “if you don’t 100% support my position on Israel, then you 100% support Hamas therefore, you are too evil to have any rights in America” or some bullshit. I support the Israelis’ right to defend their nation against terrorists and any outside aggressors. I also support Ukraine’s right to defend their nation against outside aggressors. My position regarding national defense for any sovereign nation is consistent. However, that does not mean I support what Israel is doing in Gaza. This does not make me a supporter of Hamas or the religion of Islam. Allah does not exist and I don’t support fundamentalist magical thinking. You’re not unreasonable here. But this isn’t going to end until Hamas is taken out. I don’t know how many times I’ve said I hate hate hate hate hate innocent civilians dying. And more than anything I wish there was a way to take out Hamas AND protect innocent civilians. But Hamas has made that impossible, and by design. Hamas has stated a few times now that 10/7 was just the beginning. It wasn’t the end. It won’t end until Hamas is kneecapped. All a ceasefire would do is kneecap Israel and aid Hamas. Let Hamas get back to where they were. Remember, there was a ceasefire that lasted many months. All through 10/6. Hamas broke that ceasefire (as they do just about every time) and slaughtered 1200+ innocent Jews. Civilians always pay the price for their shitty leadership when it comes to war. There is nothing I can do about Hamas other than support Joe Biden in his support of Israel’s defense via my vote and taxpayer dollars. If Israel with the military assistance of the US want to take Hamas out, they have my full support. This includes any other demonstrated terrorist organization in the region, but preferably as a surgical strike. In the 21st century, this is possible. No peace settle will be possible with the Netanyahu government in power. The Israeli citizens need to get him out of office however legally possible and get hearts and minds focused on how they and Palestinians can learn to live together or else Israel shou go full 7th Cavalry on them. At least put the Palestinians out of their hopeless misery. We humans treat our dogs better than other humans. |
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Post by averagejoe2021 on Dec 13, 2023 17:44:56 GMT
You’re not unreasonable here. But this isn’t going to end until Hamas is taken out. I don’t know how many times I’ve said I hate hate hate hate hate innocent civilians dying. And more than anything I wish there was a way to take out Hamas AND protect innocent civilians. But Hamas has made that impossible, and by design. Hamas has stated a few times now that 10/7 was just the beginning. It wasn’t the end. It won’t end until Hamas is kneecapped. All a ceasefire would do is kneecap Israel and aid Hamas. Let Hamas get back to where they were. Remember, there was a ceasefire that lasted many months. All through 10/6. Hamas broke that ceasefire (as they do just about every time) and slaughtered 1200+ innocent Jews. Civilians always pay the price for their shitty leadership when it comes to war. There is nothing I can do about Hamas other than support Joe Biden in his support of Israel’s defense via my vote and taxpayer dollars. If Israel with the military assistance of the US want to take Hamas out, they have my full support. This includes any other demonstrated terrorist organization in the region, but preferably as a surgical strike. In the 21st century, this is possible. No peace settle will be possible with the Netanyahu government in power. The Israeli citizens need to get him out of office however legally possible and get hearts and minds focused on how they and Palestinians can learn to live together or else Israel shou go full 7th Cavalry on them. At least put the Palestinians out of their hopeless misery. We humans treat our dogs better than other humans. "We humans treat our dogs better than other humans." 100% agreed. It tears one apart to think of what goes on every day across the world. |
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Post by SciFive on Dec 13, 2023 17:46:21 GMT
You’re not unreasonable here. But this isn’t going to end until Hamas is taken out. I don’t know how many times I’ve said I hate hate hate hate hate innocent civilians dying. And more than anything I wish there was a way to take out Hamas AND protect innocent civilians. But Hamas has made that impossible, and by design. Hamas has stated a few times now that 10/7 was just the beginning. It wasn’t the end. It won’t end until Hamas is kneecapped. All a ceasefire would do is kneecap Israel and aid Hamas. Let Hamas get back to where they were. Remember, there was a ceasefire that lasted many months. All through 10/6. Hamas broke that ceasefire (as they do just about every time) and slaughtered 1200+ innocent Jews. Civilians always pay the price for their shitty leadership when it comes to war. There is nothing I can do about Hamas other than support Joe Biden in his support of Israel’s defense via my vote and taxpayer dollars. If Israel with the military assistance of the US want to take Hamas out, they have my full support. This includes any other demonstrated terrorist organization in the region, but preferably as a surgical strike. In the 21st century, this is possible. No peace settle will be possible with the Netanyahu government in power. The Israeli citizens need to get him out of office however legally possible and get hearts and minds focused on how they and Palestinians can learn to live together or else Israel shou go full 7th Cavalry on them. At least put the Palestinians out of their hopeless misery.
We humans treat our dogs better than other humans. Your ignorance knows no boundaries.
Israel overall doesn't want the two-state solution as a deal with Jew-killers.
The Palestinian Authority / Fatah is on Hamas's side.
No Israeli government is going to make a deal with them. Governments can only fall from within, but no government will make peace with Jew-killers.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 13, 2023 17:48:26 GMT
One of the leaders in the Opposition (parties not in the current coalition) said yesterday that Israel will NOT make a deal for a two-state solution.
This guy does not like Netanyahu but he stated very strongly that the two-state solution is not going to happen.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 13, 2023 18:01:43 GMT
By the way, I want to make it clear that the Israeli Arabs inside Israel as citizens are mostly accepted.
We have doctors, etc, who fit in very well with Israel’s overall secular culture.
It’s some of the ones outside - terrorists and their sympathizers - who are a problem. They want all of Israel. They aren’t going to get it.
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Post by 🐕 🐕 🐕 🐕 🐕 🐈⬛ Molly on Dec 13, 2023 18:23:54 GMT
Mostly? What is the criteria you look at before 'accepting' them? does that criteria also apply to Jewish israeli's?
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Post by SciFive on Dec 13, 2023 18:26:59 GMT
Hamas will fall.
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Post by marsatax on Dec 14, 2023 1:19:21 GMT
The bigger and more powerful country in any conflict is usually the one that has to be the bigger man and show some restraint.
Israel showed restraint against Hamas for years. The result was the October 7 massacre. But the US tried running all over the world with our dicks out after our 9/11 and that didn't really solve anything either.
Wrong. We destroyed al-Qaeda, and there has been no repeat of September 11. In the same way, Israel has a good shot at destroying Hamas. There was never going to be another 9/11. They got lucky once. And if their goal was to get us to fuck ourselves in response then they were way more successful then even Bin Laden could have ever hoped for. Meanwhile the Taliban is still out there running Afghanistan after a 20 year campaign against them and we created all the conditions that allowed ISIS to exist for a while. It was action taken by the US, including destroying al-Qaeda, that prevented a repeat of the attack. Meanwhile the Taliban is still out there running Afghanistan after a 20 year campaign against themIt is true we failed against the Taliban. But one benefit of that war is: the Taliban have to know that if they give haven to anti-American terrorists again, they will pay dearly. |
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Post by marsatax on Dec 14, 2023 1:26:47 GMT
In the same way, Israel has a good shot at destroying Hamas.
I doubt it will be able with the current strategy. Bombing Gaza into submission it's unlikely to turn the Palestinians against Hamas. Bombing England didn't turn the British against Winston Churchill, bombing Germany didn't turn the Germans against Hitler, bombing the Soviet Union didn't turn the Soviets against Stalin and bombing Japan didn't turn the Japanese against Hirohito. In many ways it only made the people more determined to fight. There has to some sort of political solution. It can't be purely military.
Israel is trying to bomb Hamas and its infrastructure, not to "bomb Gaza into submission". That's why there are Israeli ground troops in Gaza. It is true that many Palestinians support Hamas. But if Hamas is destroyed, well, people tend not to support losers. bombing Japan didn't turn the Japanese against Hirohito.But it did convince the Japanese government to surrender. There has to some sort of political solution. It can't be purely military.
I don't see how that is possible at this time. The Palestinians, both in Gaza and on the West Bank, have been raised in a culture saturated with murderous hatred of Israel and of Jews, and with mindless militarism. It will take at least a generation to change that. Furthermore, the world community is not interested in pressuring the Palestinians to change. It would rather condemn Israel; it's more fun. |
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Post by Winter_King on Dec 14, 2023 13:47:35 GMT
I doubt it will be able with the current strategy. Bombing Gaza into submission it's unlikely to turn the Palestinians against Hamas. Bombing England didn't turn the British against Winston Churchill, bombing Germany didn't turn the Germans against Hitler, bombing the Soviet Union didn't turn the Soviets against Stalin and bombing Japan didn't turn the Japanese against Hirohito. In many ways it only made the people more determined to fight. There has to some sort of political solution. It can't be purely military.
Israel is trying to bomb Hamas and its infrastructure, not to "bomb Gaza into submission". That's why there are Israeli ground troops in Gaza. It is true that many Palestinians support Hamas. But if Hamas is destroyed, well, people tend not to support losers. bombing Japan didn't turn the Japanese against Hirohito.But it did convince the Japanese government to surrender. There has to some sort of political solution. It can't be purely military.
I don't see how that is possible at this time. The Palestinians, both in Gaza and on the West Bank, have been raised in a culture saturated with murderous hatred of Israel and of Jews, and with mindless militarism. It will take at least a generation to change that. Furthermore, the world community is not interested in pressuring the Palestinians to change. It would rather condemn Israel; it's more fun. It's not just Hamas infrastructure. Cutting water, electricity. Hospitals, schools and refugee camps. Thousands of women and children killed. And support for Hamas increased after the Israeli crackdown. How is this destroying Hamas? I seriously doubt that Hamas will be destroyed if you end up with people joining Hamas after losing families and friends were killed. The Japanese surrendered after the atomic bombings and the threat of a future Soviet invasion. None of these applies to Gaza. Plus Japanese leaders lived in Japan, they weren't safe in a neighboring country living in luxury. And has I showed in another thread, this was the poll conducted about Hamas support before the war:  Clearly there were plenty Palestinians who didn't like Hamas. Of course, the support for Hamas has only increased now. And as for the political solution, it's unlikely to happen with the current Israeli government which has been adamant about rejecting a two state solution which is the only viable proposal. Netanyahu strategy has been about driving a wedge between the PA and Hamas so he has propped up Hamas in Gaza so it kept the Palestinians divided so they wouldn't push for a two state solution. |
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Post by marsatax on Dec 14, 2023 15:48:27 GMT
Bombing Gaza into submission it's unlikely to turn the Palestinians against Hamas.
Israel is trying to bomb Hamas and its infrastructure, not to "bomb Gaza into submission". That's why there are Israeli ground troops in Gaza. It is true that many Palestinians support Hamas. But if Hamas is destroyed, well, people tend not to support losers. bombing Japan didn't turn the Japanese against Hirohito.But it did convince the Japanese government to surrender. There has to some sort of political solution. It can't be purely military.
I don't see how that is possible at this time. The Palestinians, both in Gaza and on the West Bank, have been raised in a culture saturated with murderous hatred of Israel and of Jews, and with mindless militarism. It will take at least a generation to change that. Furthermore, the world community is not interested in pressuring the Palestinians to change. It would rather condemn Israel; it's more fun. It's not just Hamas infrastructure. Cutting water, electricity. Hospitals, schools and refugee camps. Thousands of women and children killed. And support for Hamas increased after the Israeli crackdown. How is this destroying Hamas? I seriously doubt that Hamas will be destroyed if you end up with people joining Hamas after losing families and friends were killed. The Japanese surrendered after the atomic bombings and the threat of a future Soviet invasion. None of these applies to Gaza. Plus Japanese leaders lived in Japan, they weren't safe in a neighboring country living in luxury. And has I showed in another thread, this was the poll conducted about Hamas support before the war: Clearly there were plenty Palestinians who didn't like Hamas. Of course, the support for Hamas has only increased now. And as for the political solution, it's unlikely to happen with the current Israeli government which has been adamant about rejecting a two state solution which is the only viable proposal. Netanyahu strategy has been about driving a wedge between the PA and Hamas so he has propped up Hamas in Gaza so it kept the Palestinians divided so they wouldn't push for a two state solution.
That is a shame, but inevitable in a densely populated place like Gaza. And support for Hamas increased after the Israeli crackdown. How is this destroying Hamas?I take a wait-and-see attitude. Israel might fail in destroying Hamas. But it might succeed, just as America succeeded in destroying al-Qaeda. I seriously doubt that Hamas will be destroyed if you end up with people joining Hamas after losing families and friends were killed.That is a risk Israel has to take. I am sure Israeli strategists factored that point into their considerations. They still chose to fight this war. The Japanese surrendered after the atomic bombings and the threat of a future Soviet invasion. None of these applies to Gaza.You had said that bombing did not turn the Japanese people against Hirohito. I was simply showing that bombing DID convince the Japanese to surrender. Even so, bombing is not enough to destroy Hamas. That's why Israel has sent in ground troops. Of course, the support for Hamas has only increased now.
Something Israeli strategists must have taken into account. They still decided to fight this war. And as for the political solution, it's unlikely to happen with the current Israeli government which has been adamant about rejecting a two state solution which is the only viable proposal.A two-state solution will only be possible after there is a drastic change in the culture of the Palestinians, away from endless violence and toward permanent peace with the Jewish state. Nothing Netanyahu's government can do will change that. Only pressure from the world community will convince the Palestinians to change, and, so far, the world has no desire to apply such pressure. It would rather just condemn Israel; it's more fun. |
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Post by SciFive on Dec 14, 2023 15:52:25 GMT
What a lot of people don't understand is that Hamas in Gaza didn't get their strength from support, even if most people supported them.
They executed people who protested against them.
Hamas had their strength from half a billion dollars in tunnels, weapons and real estate.
Israel is wrecking everything they own.
So what if everyone likes them. They're coming out of the tunnels in their underpants.
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Post by yggdrasil on Dec 14, 2023 16:03:15 GMT
Could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single person "support" Hamas.
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