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Post by marsatax on Feb 11, 2024 23:50:29 GMT
Imagine if police told a bank robber that they would kill all of his hostages unless he surrenders. That's basically Israel's strategy in Gaza.
Nonsense. Israel has no intention of killing all the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. That would be Genocide, the real kind, not the Israel-basher's propaganda kind. If Israel could destroy Hamas without any Palestinian civilian casualties, it would. But that is impossible in a densely populated place like Gaza. Israel only has bad choices here. It can destroy Hamas, but it will mean a lot of civilians killed. Or it could prevent civilian casualties by allowing Hamas to survive, rebuild, and launch more October 7 massacres, as it has promised. Israelis are united in the belief that the former choice, while bad, is still better than the latter. Whether it will amount to genocide remains to be seen, but this idea that the numbers have to reach a certain threshold or murdered within a certain time frame sidesteps the stepping stones to genocide.
If the intention is not to kill everyone then they're off the a lousy start, but this idea that a genocide in the making isn't genocide until the final body of that group is buried is obtuse. Six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust weren't murdered in a span of 4-5 months. According to Al Jazeera, 28,000 Palestinians have been killed as of yesterday; this does not include the 67,000 + wounded and thousands more for whom starvation and lack of access to life-saving supplies are pending. It's been 5 months since October 7. How long will it be before one day their population is in the tens of thousands, or the thousands, or the hundreds? If Israel could destroy Hamas without harming civilians, it would; that's not a viable option past or present. What this all amounts to is the lives of civilians are not a deal-breaker.
At any rate, this thread is looking weird, like it's morphing into a support group for Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists.
Well, let's see. In WWII, at least 1,500,000 German civilians were killed, and at least 550,000 Japanese civilians were killed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_deaths_by_countryDo those count as Genocide? If the intention is not to kill everyone then they're off the a lousy start
I don't think so. Even if we take the figure 28,000 Palestinians killed that you have given (which is probably inflated, and also includes Hamas fighters killed), out of a population of 2,300,000 in Gaza, that is only about 1.2% of the population. So if Israel's intention is to commit Genocide, then they ARE off to a lousy start. How long will it be before one day their population is in the tens of thousands, or the thousands, or the hundreds? Well, since it has taken Israel 4 months, which is one-third of a year, to kill 28,000 Palestinians, at the same rate it will take Israel about 27 years to kill the entire population of Gaza. I think Israel will succeed in destroying Hamas long before that. What this all amounts to is the lives of civilians are not a deal-breaker.
Israelis have to think about the lives of Israeli civilians. Why should Israel end the war and allow Hamas to survive, to rebuild, and to launch more October 7 massacres, as it has openly promised? |
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Post by marsatax on Feb 11, 2024 23:54:53 GMT
this is so terrible! it just makes me wish Hamas hadn't crossed the border, raped, tortured, and murdered, over 1200 innocent, non-combatant Israeli civilians ! Doesn't matter what Hamas has done.
Unless they are the who killed them, they aren't responsible for her death.
Your argument is essentially the same as a wife beaters "look at what you made me do".
Does that logic also apply to the Allies whose WWII bombing killed more than a million German civilians and hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians? |
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Post by marsatax on Feb 11, 2024 23:57:58 GMT
the October 7th attack wasn't planned in the vacuum, over 3,000 Hamas murderers crossed the border into Israel, they have families, they have friends, people knew about this in Gaza, and no one said anything, the people of Gaza are complicit in the attack on Israel and the leaders of Hamas are directly responsible for the aftermath I'm not disputing that.
And those were murdered by Hamas, no question. Just as every civilian who has been bombed by Israel were murdered by Israel.
Just as every German and Japanese civilian who was bombed by the WWII Allies was murdered by the Allies? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2024 0:11:09 GMT
Whether it will amount to genocide remains to be seen, but this idea that the numbers have to reach a certain threshold or murdered within a certain time frame sidesteps the stepping stones to genocide.
If the intention is not to kill everyone then they're off the a lousy start, but this idea that a genocide in the making isn't genocide until the final body of that group is buried is obtuse. Six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust weren't murdered in a span of 4-5 months. According to Al Jazeera, 28,000 Palestinians have been killed as of yesterday; this does not include the 67,000 + wounded and thousands more for whom starvation and lack of access to life-saving supplies are pending. It's been 5 months since October 7. How long will it be before one day their population is in the tens of thousands, or the thousands, or the hundreds? If Israel could destroy Hamas without harming civilians, it would; that's not a viable option past or present. What this all amounts to is the lives of civilians are not a deal-breaker.
At any rate, this thread is looking weird, like it's morphing into a support group for Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists.
Well, let's see. In WWII, at least 1,500,000 German civilians were killed, and at least 550,000 Japanese civilians were killed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_deaths_by_countryDo those count as Genocide? If the intention is not to kill everyone then they're off the a lousy start
I don't think so. Even if we take the figure 28,000 Palestinians killed that you have given (which is probably inflated, and also includes Hamas fighters killed), out of a population of 2,300,000 in Gaza, that is only about 1.2% of the population. So if Israel's intention is to commit Genocide, then they ARE off to a lousy start. How long will it be before one day their population is in the tens of thousands, or the thousands, or the hundreds? Well, since it has taken Israel 4 months, which is one-third of a year, to kill 28,000 Palestinians, at the same rate it will take Israel about 27 years to kill the entire population of Gaza. I think Israel will succeed in destroying Hamas long before that. What this all amounts to is the lives of civilians are not a deal-breaker.
Israelis have to think about the lives of Israeli civilians. Why should Israel end the war and allow Hamas to survive, to rebuild, and to launch more October 7 massacres, as it has openly promised? It's 5600 a month if it's a rough draft of 28,000 over 5 months, and a lousy start is still a start.
I appreciate the math, but it also brings up that genocide is not a race against time. It can be a sustained effort. The human race is still defining what genocide is.
Just remember Netanyahu openly declared no room for a Palestinian state post-war, and that Israel must seize control of everything west of the Jordan, the cat was out of the bag. Israel's goal isn't an open secret anymore. It's just open. Hamas' intentions are standard knowledge. Israel's is newer to the conversation, and it irks me that it did not seem to change a thing.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 12, 2024 5:27:56 GMT
I'm not disputing that.
And those were murdered by Hamas, no question. Just as every civilian who has been bombed by Israel were murdered by Israel.
Just as every German and Japanese civilian who was bombed by the WWII Allies was murdered by the Allies? What's with the double post?
I really wish you wouldn't compare today to a hundred year old war (yeah I know it's only 80). Unless it's accompanied by the refrain: War. War never Changes.
Different times, different technologies, different... everything.
And you know what? Even back then it was a controversial topic. That why the bombers (the people) was conspicuously absent from the celebrations and the bombings themselves was rarely talked about. The carpet bombings, mind you. Not say, the dambusters.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 12, 2024 5:32:32 GMT
Doesn't matter what Hamas has done.
Unless they are the who killed them, they aren't responsible for her death.
Your argument is essentially the same as a wife beaters "look at what you made me do".
Uh, you do know that your IQ is under 40, don't you? You do know that much? (No offense) So you're saying Hamas was "nagging" people like a wife might nag a husband. You're a liar and an idiot for thinking anyone can make sense out of your lie. Hamas is 100% to blame, just like a bank robber shooting at the police while escaping is 100% to blame for anyone who dies in crossfire when police shoot back. Well offense taken, so allow me to respond in kind:
If you that's what you think about women, that doesn't speak well about you. |
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Post by SciFive on Feb 12, 2024 9:38:55 GMT
Those who illegally use human shields are responsible for whatever happens to them.
This is how the law works.
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Post by drystyx on Feb 12, 2024 13:31:20 GMT
Uh, you do know that your IQ is under 40, don't you? You do know that much? (No offense) So you're saying Hamas was "nagging" people like a wife might nag a husband. You're a liar and an idiot for thinking anyone can make sense out of your lie. Hamas is 100% to blame, just like a bank robber shooting at the police while escaping is 100% to blame for anyone who dies in crossfire when police shoot back. Well offense taken, so allow me to respond in kind:
If you that's what you think about women, that doesn't speak well about you. No, it speaks about you, not me. You're the one who brought the subject up. But thanks for proving my point about your low IQ. No offense. |
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Post by marsatax on Feb 12, 2024 18:20:13 GMT
Whether it will amount to genocide remains to be seen, but this idea that the numbers have to reach a certain threshold or murdered within a certain time frame sidesteps the stepping stones to genocide.
Well, let's see. In WWII, at least 1,500,000 German civilians were killed, and at least 550,000 Japanese civilians were killed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_deaths_by_countryDo those count as Genocide? If the intention is not to kill everyone then they're off the a lousy start
I don't think so. Even if we take the figure 28,000 Palestinians killed that you have given (which is probably inflated, and also includes Hamas fighters killed), out of a population of 2,300,000 in Gaza, that is only about 1.2% of the population. So if Israel's intention is to commit Genocide, then they ARE off to a lousy start. How long will it be before one day their population is in the tens of thousands, or the thousands, or the hundreds? Well, since it has taken Israel 4 months, which is one-third of a year, to kill 28,000 Palestinians, at the same rate it will take Israel about 27 years to kill the entire population of Gaza. I think Israel will succeed in destroying Hamas long before that. What this all amounts to is the lives of civilians are not a deal-breaker.
Israelis have to think about the lives of Israeli civilians. Why should Israel end the war and allow Hamas to survive, to rebuild, and to launch more October 7 massacres, as it has openly promised? It's 5600 a month if it's a rough draft of 28,000 over 5 months, and a lousy start is still a start.
I appreciate the math, but it also brings up that genocide is not a race against time. It can be a sustained effort. The human race is still defining what genocide is.
Just remember Netanyahu openly declared no room for a Palestinian state post-war, and that Israel must seize control of everything west of the Jordan, the cat was out of the bag. Israel's goal isn't an open secret anymore. It's just open. Hamas' intentions are standard knowledge. Israel's is newer to the conversation, and it irks me that it did not seem to change a thing.
If Israel engages in the bombing of Gaza for 27 years, such that each year 84,000 Palestinians are killed, then you can legitimately charge Israel with committing Genocide. But I do not believe it will come to that. Meanwhile, you did not answer my question: Why should Israel end the war and allow Hamas to survive, to rebuild, and to launch more October 7 massacres, as it has openly promised? Just remember Netanyahu openly declared no room for a Palestinian state post-war, and that Israel must seize control of everything west of the Jordan, the cat was out of the bag. Israel's goal isn't an open secret anymore. It's just open.
First, even Israelis who oppose Netanyahu are united on the need to continue this war to destroy Hamas. Second, Israeli leftists are disillusioned by the Palestinians, because many of the Israelis killed on October 7 were leftists who supported the rights of Palestinians, enjoyed employing workers from Gaza, and favored the two-state solution. Many of the surviving leftists understand that there must be no Palestinian state at this time. Third, Netanyahu will not be in office forever. If Israel succeeds in destroying Hamas, some Palestinians might begin to change their ways and take the idea of permanent peace with Israel seriously. If that happens, then Israelis can start taking the two-state solution seriously again. |
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Post by marsatax on Feb 12, 2024 18:30:47 GMT
Just as every German and Japanese civilian who was bombed by the WWII Allies was murdered by the Allies? What's with the double post?
I really wish you wouldn't compare today to a hundred year old war (yeah I know it's only 80). Unless it's accompanied by the refrain: War. War never Changes.
Different times, different technologies, different... everything.
And you know what? Even back then it was a controversial topic. That why the bombers (the people) was conspicuously absent from the celebrations and the bombings themselves was rarely talked about. The carpet bombings, mind you. Not say, the dambusters.
Technology advances. For some of the bombing, Israel has been using smart bombs, which are much more accurate in hitting their targets, and therefore they reduce "collateral damage". So, without them, civilian casualties would have been even greater in number. And you know what? Even back then it was a controversial topic. That why the bombers (the people) was conspicuously absent from the celebrations and the bombings themselves was rarely talked about. The carpet bombings, mind you. Not say, the dambusters.It might not be romantic, but bombing was an important part of winning WWII. The Allied strategy in winning the war was to destroy Germany's (and Japan's) ability to make war. Bombing enemy industry was crucial to this. |
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Post by SciFive on Feb 12, 2024 18:34:11 GMT
cat “Just remember Netanyahu openly declared no room for a Palestinian state post-war, and that Israel must seize control of everything west of the Jordan, the cat was out of the bag. Israel's goal isn't an open secret anymore. It's just open.” ============== You’re not telling the truth. Netanyahu didn’t say “no room for a Palestinian state”. He spoke about security issues. He did NOT say Israel would seize control of everything west of the Jordan River. He said that Israel would take care of security. Hamas is in the West Bank along with other bad groups. Israel has to defend Israelis from these guys. It’s about security. Israel isn’t just dreaming about having violent groups too close to Israel. These groups have shown a cruelty worse than anything we’ve seen since WWII. The Palestinians are facing a different situation now. Thanks to Hamas.
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Post by SciFive on Feb 12, 2024 18:38:43 GMT
Mahmoud Abbas and his buddies in the Palestinian Authority believe that their lives are about to change with a state, etc.
They are trusted a lot less than they were several months ago, though.
They aren't going to get their dream of bringing Israel down via a "state" that acquires dangerous concessions from Israel.
(They weren't going to get these concessions from Israel anyway but they are a lot farther away from the Pals' dreams now.)
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 12, 2024 18:44:16 GMT
What's with the double post?
I really wish you wouldn't compare today to a hundred year old war (yeah I know it's only 80). Unless it's accompanied by the refrain: War. War never Changes.
Different times, different technologies, different... everything.
And you know what? Even back then it was a controversial topic. That why the bombers (the people) was conspicuously absent from the celebrations and the bombings themselves was rarely talked about. The carpet bombings, mind you. Not say, the dambusters.
Bombing? Absolutely.
Carpetbombing, however had a very dubious value. Indeed the practise contributes heavily to why Hitler lost the Battle of Britain. It was used as revenge not so pure but very simple.
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Post by SciFive on Feb 12, 2024 18:49:43 GMT
Israel isn't carpet bombing, of course.
Israel doesn't have the proper airplanes for this but wouldn't do it anyway.
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Post by geddy on Feb 12, 2024 18:53:19 GMT
Better get used to it unfortunately as Israel is going full tilt into Rafah soon and if Hamas uses civilians as shields, so be it.
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