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Post by SciFive on Apr 26, 2024 14:15:20 GMT
There were clearly defined borders when Jerusalem was split from 1949 to 1967.
This was 57 years ago.
It can't be reproduced today with hundreds of thousands of additional people living in Israel's capital today.
As for negotiations, the Palestinians won't do it. They want what they've said they want and they won't accept absolutely anything less.
Even if they were willing to negotiate for a reasonable deal, it wouldn't bring peace.
Their leaders have sworn a billion times to their people that they will be acquiring all of Israel.
No peace deal is possible with these guys.
And under Netanyahu, the Israelis won't do it either. That's the thing, there are people on both sides who refuse to any sort of compromise and this is the result. The Knesset recently voted 99 (out of 120) against the two state solution. This is left and right voting together against it. A solid majority of Israeli voters are against it, too. This is not about Bibi. The Pal leaders are Medieval asshole serial killers. Israelis are not going to make concessions to them. The Pal leaders don’t even pretend that any of this is about peace. Westerners who think otherwise are willfully blind.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 14:37:50 GMT
Something like 147 countries have recognized "Palestine" as a full state.
None of them say "However it turns out". They are expecting the one that the Pals are selling without Israel's permission although it means suicidal concessions from Israel to make it all happen.
The Pals themselves are not declaring statehood yet until Israel agrees to their terms (which will never happen) but they are seeking the UN Security Council to go around Israel so that the Pals can be recognized for their definition of their state that includes half of Jerusalem and other dangerous concessions from Israel.
This is why the U.S. vetoed it.
Of course most of them recognized the PLO as the representative of Palestine, not Hamas, and the PLO has officially endorsed the two state solution. They also recognized the right to exist of Israel. Later they suspended the recognition until Israel recognizes Palestine as a state which under Netanyahu's government, Israel has refused to even consider. So which goes to back to what I said, no one wants a two state solution with Hamas in charge of Palestine and any real two state solution requires mutually recognition of each other and clear defined borders. The issues of right of return, borders and the status of Jerusalem it's something that needs to be negotiated but this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel. this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous.
It does not necessarily mean Israel's suicide. But think how much deadlier the October 7 massacre would have been if the Palestinians had not had just Gaza as a base, but also the West Bank. Far more Israelis would have been murdered, and many Israelis would run away from Israel, seeing it as nothing but a death trap. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions.
In response to the inevitable fighting, the UN and the world community would only condemn Israel, as they do today. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation.Wrong. Germany and Japan were under occupation at the end of WWII. And if the Germans and Japanese peoples had done one tenth of the crap the Palestinians do, the Allies would have ruthlessly crushed them. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel.
The only thing that will lead to peace is if the world community starts pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred and to start taking peace with Israel seriously. But the world community has no desire to do that. It is more fun for them to just endlessly criticize Israel.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 26, 2024 14:42:04 GMT
Why did Obama kill Osama bin Laden?
He could have given him half of Washington DC.
He could have forced Americans to be Muslims, which is what ObL wanted.
Why just kill him if negotiations work so well?
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 26, 2024 14:42:48 GMT
Of course most of them recognized the PLO as the representative of Palestine, not Hamas, and the PLO has officially endorsed the two state solution. They also recognized the right to exist of Israel. Later they suspended the recognition until Israel recognizes Palestine as a state which under Netanyahu's government, Israel has refused to even consider. So which goes to back to what I said, no one wants a two state solution with Hamas in charge of Palestine and any real two state solution requires mutually recognition of each other and clear defined borders. The issues of right of return, borders and the status of Jerusalem it's something that needs to be negotiated but this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel. this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous.
It does not necessarily mean Israel's suicide. But think how much deadlier the October 7 massacre would have been if the Palestinians had not had just Gaza as a base, but also the West Bank. Far more Israelis would have been murdered, and many Israelis would run away from Israel, seeing it as nothing but a death trap. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions.
In response to the inevitable fighting, the UN and the world community would only condemn Israel, as they do today. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation.Wrong. Germany and Japan were under occupation at the end of WWII. And if the Germans and Japanese peoples had done one tenth of the crap the Palestinians do, the Allies would have ruthlessly crushed them. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel.
The only thing that will lead to peace is if the world community starts pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred and to start taking peace with Israel seriously. But the world community has no desire to do that. It is more fun for them to just endlessly criticize Israel. None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred? Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 26, 2024 14:46:31 GMT
this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous.
It does not necessarily mean Israel's suicide. But think how much deadlier the October 7 massacre would have been if the Palestinians had not had just Gaza as a base, but also the West Bank. Far more Israelis would have been murdered, and many Israelis would run away from Israel, seeing it as nothing but a death trap. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions.
In response to the inevitable fighting, the UN and the world community would only condemn Israel, as they do today. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation.Wrong. Germany and Japan were under occupation at the end of WWII. And if the Germans and Japanese peoples had done one tenth of the crap the Palestinians do, the Allies would have ruthlessly crushed them. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel.
The only thing that will lead to peace is if the world community starts pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred and to start taking peace with Israel seriously. But the world community has no desire to do that. It is more fun for them to just endlessly criticize Israel. None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred? Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture. The French Resistance didn’t suicide bomb German civilians or rape young German women to death with broken pelvises. The Arabs here have been murdering random non-combatant Jews since 1860 and earlier. It’s their culture. They destroy themselves over it with no end in sight. Westerners who agree with them are opting to kill western civilization.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 14:57:00 GMT
Nancy Pelosi: Netanyahu is 'obstacle' to the two-state solutionFormer House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has called Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu an "obstacle to the two-state solution," insisting that he resign his position. In an interview with RTÉ's Six One News in Ireland, Pelosi said, "We recognize Israel's right to protect itself. We reject the policy and the practice of Netanyahu. Terrible. What could be worse than what he has done in response?" She added, "I don't know whether he's afraid of peace, incapable of peace, or just doesn't want peace, but he has been an obstacle to the two-state solution." www.israelnationalnews.com/news/388966Good for Bibi!!!! It’s not true, though. A very solid majority of the citizens of Israel don’t want it either. The Knesset recently voted 99 (out of 120 votes) against the two state solution. It would be suicide for Israel. There are two cultures whether there are two states or not. The only question is whether it can last. You keep claiming (gleefully) that Hamas wants to eliminate Israel, and your solution to that is to eliminate them. ?!?!? You don't see yourselves in others? I have tried to explain to you that sensible people will not put up with that forever. As long as you try to solve the problem with violence it will go on forever. That is just how violence does not work. You only have two other choices, learn to share the area, or get out of it. In 2005, Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza, and forced out all the Jewish settlers. If it had gone well, Israel would then have been under pressure to do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank. But, unfortunately, it did NOT go well. The Palestinians voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. The lesson learned is that Israel must continue to defend itself (which you call "solving the problem with violence") until the Palestinians decide to become peaceful. That day is a long way off.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 14:58:31 GMT
Hamas is ISIS and Al Qaeda. Obama killed Osama bin Laden.
There is no way to make peace with Jihadists. Obama knew this.
Israel is stuck with the "superior knowledge" (haha) of western diplomats who tried to force Israel to make peace with Jihadi terrorists 30 years ago. It was a failure.
The only answer is to get the Jihadi terror groups out. They are dangerous for everyone. They exist in Germany and the German government knows this is very bad news.
If that is true, and I hope it is not, then you would have to move out. Hurry up then and move out. You are not going to be able to kill them all. Again for emphasis, you are not going to be able to kill them all. Telling Jews they have to leave Israel is as offensive as telling African-Americans to go back to Africa.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 15:11:07 GMT
this idea the the two state solution means Israel suicide is ridiculous.
It does not necessarily mean Israel's suicide. But think how much deadlier the October 7 massacre would have been if the Palestinians had not had just Gaza as a base, but also the West Bank. Far more Israelis would have been murdered, and many Israelis would run away from Israel, seeing it as nothing but a death trap. If there is a two state solution, Palestine gets to be responsible for it's actions.
In response to the inevitable fighting, the UN and the world community would only condemn Israel, as they do today. Until then, well their status is of an occupied people and under that status, they have right to resist occupation.Wrong. Germany and Japan were under occupation at the end of WWII. And if the Germans and Japanese peoples had done one tenth of the crap the Palestinians do, the Allies would have ruthlessly crushed them. Keeping the status quo will not bring peace to Israel.
The only thing that will lead to peace is if the world community starts pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred and to start taking peace with Israel seriously. But the world community has no desire to do that. It is more fun for them to just endlessly criticize Israel. None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred? Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture. None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable.
The people who "view" that are simply wrong. Israel's ending the occupation of Gaza led to the October 7 massacre. Israel ending the occupation of the West Bank would lead to far deadlier massacres and far more of them. The Israelis are determined not to allow that to happen. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said.
The French and the Ukrainians were/are fighting against aggressors. In contrast, Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank in a war in which Egypt and Jordan, not Israel, were the aggressors. Thus, Israel's occupation of those territories is analogous to the Allied occupations of Germany and Japan at the end of WWII, totally legal. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred?
Any such pressure by Israel would be a waste of time. The Palestinians have a murderous hatred for Israel, and will not listen to it. Only the world community might be able to persuade the Palestinians to change their ways. And, unfortunately, the world community does not want to do that. It would rather just condemn Israel; it's more fun. Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture.
Such is the nature of war. Prior to October 7, Israel took a "Don't bother us and we won't bother you" attitude toward Hamas. Israelis now know that that policy was a complete failure.
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 26, 2024 15:44:50 GMT
None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred? Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture. None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable.
The people who "view" that are simply wrong. Israel's ending the occupation of Gaza led to the October 7 massacre. Israel ending the occupation of the West Bank would lead to far deadlier massacres and far more of them. The Israelis are determined not to allow that to happen. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said.
The French and the Ukrainians were/are fighting against aggressors. In contrast, Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank in a war in which Egypt and Jordan, not Israel, were the aggressors. Thus, Israel's occupation of those territories is analogous to the Allied occupations of Germany and Japan at the end of WWII, totally legal. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred?
Any such pressure by Israel would be a waste of time. The Palestinians have a murderous hatred for Israel, and will not listen to it. Only the world community might be able to persuade the Palestinians to change their ways. And, unfortunately, the world community does not want to do that. It would rather just condemn Israel; it's more fun. Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture.
Such is the nature of war. Prior to October 7, Israel took a "Don't bother us and we won't bother you" attitude toward Hamas. Israelis now know that that policy was a complete failure. People are definitely not wrong when they say people have the right to resist foreign occupation. It's in fact enshrined in the Geneva conventions. Also no one in their right mind thinks that Israel ended the occupation of the Gaza strip given that Israel still controlled entry and exit from the area, their air and sea space. It's still is under occupation for all intents and purposes. Occupation is totally legal but and not annexation which Israel has done to the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank. And certainly not transferring part of the civilian population to the occupied territories. Something that the allies didn't do when it comes to Japan or Germany. It also means that Israel being the occupying power has duties of protecting the civilian population that is under occupation. Yes, I'm aware that Netanyahu's policies towards the Palestinians was a massive failure. Which is why if the man had any shame, he would resign.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 26, 2024 15:51:00 GMT
None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable.
The people who "view" that are simply wrong. Israel's ending the occupation of Gaza led to the October 7 massacre. Israel ending the occupation of the West Bank would lead to far deadlier massacres and far more of them. The Israelis are determined not to allow that to happen. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said.
The French and the Ukrainians were/are fighting against aggressors. In contrast, Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank in a war in which Egypt and Jordan, not Israel, were the aggressors. Thus, Israel's occupation of those territories is analogous to the Allied occupations of Germany and Japan at the end of WWII, totally legal. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred?
Any such pressure by Israel would be a waste of time. The Palestinians have a murderous hatred for Israel, and will not listen to it. Only the world community might be able to persuade the Palestinians to change their ways. And, unfortunately, the world community does not want to do that. It would rather just condemn Israel; it's more fun. Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture.
Such is the nature of war. Prior to October 7, Israel took a "Don't bother us and we won't bother you" attitude toward Hamas. Israelis now know that that policy was a complete failure. People are definitely not wrong when they say people have the right to resist foreign occupation. It's in fact enshrined in the Geneva conventions. Also no one in their right mind thinks that Israel ended the occupation of the Gaza strip given that Israel still controlled entry and exit from the area, their air and sea space. It's still is under occupation for all intents and purposes. Occupation is totally legal but and not annexation which Israel has done to the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank. And certainly not transferring part of the civilian population to the occupied territories. Something that the allies didn't do when it comes to Japan or Germany. It also means that Israel being the occupying power has duties of protecting the civilian population that is under occupation. Yes, I'm aware that Netanyahu's policies towards the Palestinians was a massive failure. Which is why if the man had any shame, he would resign. Trusting Pal leaders in a cease fire was a mistake. Israel will never do this again. No peace deal. No two state solution.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 17:30:47 GMT
None of that changes the fact that resistance towards occupation by a foreign country is viewed as acceptable.
The people who "view" that are simply wrong. Israel's ending the occupation of Gaza led to the October 7 massacre. Israel ending the occupation of the West Bank would lead to far deadlier massacres and far more of them. The Israelis are determined not to allow that to happen. The French were certainly in the right in resisting occupation by the Nazis and so are Ukrainians in resisting against Russian occupation. So nothing wrong about what I said.
The French and the Ukrainians were/are fighting against aggressors. In contrast, Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank in a war in which Egypt and Jordan, not Israel, were the aggressors. Thus, Israel's occupation of those territories is analogous to the Allied occupations of Germany and Japan at the end of WWII, totally legal. Do you think Israel has been pressuring the Palestinians to abandon their culture of hatred?
Any such pressure by Israel would be a waste of time. The Palestinians have a murderous hatred for Israel, and will not listen to it. Only the world community might be able to persuade the Palestinians to change their ways. And, unfortunately, the world community does not want to do that. It would rather just condemn Israel; it's more fun. Because from what I've seen, a lot of the actions taken by the Israeli government has only reinforced that culture.
Such is the nature of war. Prior to October 7, Israel took a "Don't bother us and we won't bother you" attitude toward Hamas. Israelis now know that that policy was a complete failure. People are definitely not wrong when they say people have the right to resist foreign occupation. It's in fact enshrined in the Geneva conventions. Also no one in their right mind thinks that Israel ended the occupation of the Gaza strip given that Israel still controlled entry and exit from the area, their air and sea space. It's still is under occupation for all intents and purposes. Occupation is totally legal but and not annexation which Israel has done to the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank. And certainly not transferring part of the civilian population to the occupied territories. Something that the allies didn't do when it comes to Japan or Germany. It also means that Israel being the occupying power has duties of protecting the civilian population that is under occupation. Yes, I'm aware that Netanyahu's policies towards the Palestinians was a massive failure. Which is why if the man had any shame, he would resign. People are definitely not wrong when they say people have the right to resist foreign occupation. It's in fact enshrined in the Geneva conventions.
Germans and Japanese may have had the "right" to resist Allied occupation of their countries, but the Allies had the right to fight the resisters, and even kill them if necessary. Iraqis may have had the "right" to resist coalition occupation of their country during Desert Storm, but the coalition had the right to fight the resisters, and even kill them if necessary. Also no one in their right mind thinks that Israel ended the occupation of the Gaza strip given that Israel still controlled entry and exit from the area, their air and sea space. It's still is under occupation for all intents and purposes.Rubbish. If Israel were still occupying Gaza after 2005, it would not have allowed the endless rocket attacks, the digging of hundreds of miles of military tunnels, the repeated sending over of arson kites and balloons, or the October 7 atrocities. Occupation is totally legal but and not annexation which Israel has done to the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank.When Syria controlled the Golan Heights, it used them to repeatedly shoot down at Israeli towns in the valley below. Since Israel took control, that region has been relatively quiet. Any violence there has been from Lebanon (and Hezbollah), which Israel does not control. When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, Jews were not permitted to visit their holiest sites, the Temple Mount and Western Wall. Why should the Israelis return to that situation? I am not aware of Israel annexing any of the West Bank. And certainly not transferring part of the civilian population to the occupied territories.
The League of Nations called for Jewish settlement on that land back in 1920 or so. The UN inherits League decisions. It also means that Israel being the occupying power has duties of protecting the civilian population that is under occupation.
Israel is doing that as best it can. But right now Gaza is a war zone, and because it is so densely populated, civilian casualties are inevitable. Yes, I'm aware that Netanyahu's policies towards the Palestinians was a massive failure. Which is why if the man had any shame, he would resign.Netanyahu is a typical politician. But even the Israelis who oppose him are united on the need to destroy Hamas.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 26, 2024 17:36:12 GMT
Israel never “transferred” Jews to the so-called “West Bank”.
Jews aren’t furniture.
When I lived there, it was totally my choice because I had a friend there.
No one “put” me there - certainly not Israel.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 26, 2024 22:08:32 GMT
If that is true, and I hope it is not, then you would have to move out. Hurry up then and move out. You are not going to be able to kill them all. Again for emphasis, you are not going to be able to kill them all. Telling Jews they have to leave Israel is as offensive as telling African-Americans to go back to Africa. Telling anyone you will participate in unending violence is offensive.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 26, 2024 22:12:02 GMT
There are two cultures whether there are two states or not. The only question is whether it can last. You keep claiming (gleefully) that Hamas wants to eliminate Israel, and your solution to that is to eliminate them. ?!?!? You don't see yourselves in others? I have tried to explain to you that sensible people will not put up with that forever. As long as you try to solve the problem with violence it will go on forever. That is just how violence does not work. You only have two other choices, learn to share the area, or get out of it. In 2005, Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza, and forced out all the Jewish settlers. If it had gone well, Israel would then have been under pressure to do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank. But, unfortunately, it did NOT go well. The Palestinians voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. The lesson learned is that Israel must continue to defend itself (which you call "solving the problem with violence") until the Palestinians decide to become peaceful. That day is a long way off.
Now we're getting somewhere. You admit violence only makes sense if there is an end to it. Now you just have to admit there can be an end to it.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 22:26:23 GMT
Telling Jews they have to leave Israel is as offensive as telling African-Americans to go back to Africa. Telling anyone you will participate in unending violence is offensive. When a war begins, few if any observers know exactly when the war will end. I hope one day the Palestinians will take the idea of permanent peace with Israel seriously. But I also know that that day is a long way off.
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