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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 22:29:19 GMT
In 2005, Israel unilaterally and unconditionally withdrew from Gaza, and forced out all the Jewish settlers. If it had gone well, Israel would then have been under pressure to do a similar withdrawal from the West Bank. But, unfortunately, it did NOT go well. The Palestinians voted in Hamas, repeatedly blitzed Israeli towns with rockets, and launched the October 7 massacre. The lesson learned is that Israel must continue to defend itself (which you call "solving the problem with violence") until the Palestinians decide to become peaceful. That day is a long way off.
Now we're getting somewhere. You admit violence only makes sense if there is an end to it. Now you just have to admit there can be an end to it.
Well, sure, the violence there can end. But that can only happen when the vast majority of Palestinians have changed their ways and decided that permanent peace with Israel is better than an endless war. And THAT can only happen when the world community changes its ways and decides to start pressuring the Palestinians and not just endlessly condemn Israel.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 26, 2024 22:41:30 GMT
Now we're getting somewhere. You admit violence only makes sense if there is an end to it. Now you just have to admit there can be an end to it.
Well, sure, the violence there can end. But that can only happen when the vast majority of Palestinians have changed their ways and decided that permanent peace with Israel is better than an endless war. And THAT can only happen when the world community changes its ways and decides to start pressuring the Palestinians and not just endlessly condemn Israel. What is all this talk about a two state solution?
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 23:01:25 GMT
Well, sure, the violence there can end. But that can only happen when the vast majority of Palestinians have changed their ways and decided that permanent peace with Israel is better than an endless war. And THAT can only happen when the world community changes its ways and decides to start pressuring the Palestinians and not just endlessly condemn Israel. What is all this talk about a two state solution? The two-state solution would mean an end to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians by allowing Israel to continue to exist, and by allowing land in Gaza and the West Bank to become a Palestinian Arab state. It can only be successful when the vast majority of Palestinians are willing to accept permanent peace with Israel. These days most Palestinians, and their supporters here in the West, have the chant "From the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, Palestine will be free." Which means the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian state. Obviously, that is the opposite of a two-state solution.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 26, 2024 23:14:20 GMT
What is all this talk about a two state solution? The two-state solution would mean an end to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians by allowing Israel to continue to exist, and by allowing land in Gaza and the West Bank to become a Palestinian Arab state. It can only be successful when the vast majority of Palestinians are willing to accept permanent peace with Israel. These days most Palestinians, and their supporters here in the West, have the chant "From the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, Palestine will be free." Which means the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian state. Obviously, that is the opposite of a two-state solution.
And your plan is not the opposite of a two state solution?
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 23:23:11 GMT
The two-state solution would mean an end to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians by allowing Israel to continue to exist, and by allowing land in Gaza and the West Bank to become a Palestinian Arab state. It can only be successful when the vast majority of Palestinians are willing to accept permanent peace with Israel. These days most Palestinians, and their supporters here in the West, have the chant "From the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, Palestine will be free." Which means the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian state. Obviously, that is the opposite of a two-state solution.
And your plan is not the opposite of a two state solution?
My plan is for Israel to destroy Hamas, and then help the Palestinians rebuild Gaza, or at least not stand in the way when Palestinians and foreigners rebuild Gaza. Maybe by some miracle the Palestinians will seek real peace with Israel after that. If not, then maybe some decades or generations hence the world community will start pressuring the Palestinians to become peaceful. Then the two-state solution will be possible. It is certainly not possible now; October 7 made that clear.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 26, 2024 23:26:20 GMT
And your plan is not the opposite of a two state solution?
My plan is for Israel to destroy Hamas, and then help the Palestinians rebuild Gaza, or at least not stand in the way when Palestinians and foreigners rebuild Gaza. Maybe by some miracle the Palestinians will seek real peace with Israel after that. If not, then maybe some decades or generations hence the world community will start pressuring the Palestinians to become peaceful. Then the two-state solution will be possible. It is certainly not possible now; October 7 made that clear.
That sounds like it could be terribly difficult. Don't make it more difficult than it has to be.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 26, 2024 23:54:53 GMT
My plan is for Israel to destroy Hamas, and then help the Palestinians rebuild Gaza, or at least not stand in the way when Palestinians and foreigners rebuild Gaza. Maybe by some miracle the Palestinians will seek real peace with Israel after that. If not, then maybe some decades or generations hence the world community will start pressuring the Palestinians to become peaceful. Then the two-state solution will be possible. It is certainly not possible now; October 7 made that clear.
That sounds like it could be terribly difficult. Don't make it more difficult than it has to be.
It's not up to me. It's up to the Palestinians. And it is up to the world community whether it will ever be willing to pressure the Palestinians to make peace.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 27, 2024 10:51:47 GMT
That sounds like it could be terribly difficult. Don't make it more difficult than it has to be.
It's not up to me. It's up to the Palestinians. And it is up to the world community whether it will ever be willing to pressure the Palestinians to make peace.
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful, or that's the way they see it anyway. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe. Why would anyone do that?
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Post by SciFive on Apr 27, 2024 12:06:02 GMT
It's not up to me. It's up to the Palestinians. And it is up to the world community whether it will ever be willing to pressure the Palestinians to make peace. The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful, or that's the way they see it anyway. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe. Why would anyone do that?
Hamas are Medieval animals who don't care if their own people die, let alone Jews (who they think should be slaughtered in person).
They are like Al Qaeda on 9/11 and ISIS when they filmed themselves beheading people.
These groups are monsters that have carried inhumane monstrosity with them from the worst parts of human history.
What they've all done is quite real.
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Post by 🐾 Molly 🐾 on Apr 27, 2024 12:39:34 GMT
“… who don't care if their own people die… ”
Couldn’t the same be said for Israelis that didn’t prioritize the return of hostages in this war over destroying Gaza?
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 27, 2024 13:18:27 GMT
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful, or that's the way they see it anyway. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe. Why would anyone do that?
Hamas are Medieval animals who don't care if their own people die, let alone Jews (who they think should be slaughtered in person).
They are like Al Qaeda on 9/11 and ISIS when they filmed themselves beheading people. These groups are monsters that have carried inhumane monstrosity with them from the worst parts of human history. What they've all done is quite real. That's what you keep saying anyway. I'm sorry so few people believe you.
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Post by SciFive on Apr 27, 2024 15:10:33 GMT
Hamas are Medieval animals who don't care if their own people die, let alone Jews (who they think should be slaughtered in person).
They are like Al Qaeda on 9/11 and ISIS when they filmed themselves beheading people. These groups are monsters that have carried inhumane monstrosity with them from the worst parts of human history. What they've all done is quite real. That's what you keep saying anyway. I'm sorry so few people believe you. The international community isn’t denying that it happened. The Palestinian civilians agree that it happened and celebrate it. This isn’t the issue.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 27, 2024 17:02:15 GMT
It's not up to me. It's up to the Palestinians. And it is up to the world community whether it will ever be willing to pressure the Palestinians to make peace.
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful, or that's the way they see it anyway. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe. Why would anyone do that?
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful
No it is not. The UN passes dozens of resolutions condemning Israel for all of its sins, real and imagined. It does not pass resolutions urging the Palestinians to agree to peace with Israel. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe.
As Israel's ambassador Abba Eban once said, "Some things in Jewish history are too terrible to be believed, but nothing in Jewish history is too terrible to have happened." Why would anyone do that?
If the 20th century has shown anything, it is that human beings can do the most brutal things to other human beings, if they have been indoctrinated in an ideology of hate.
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Apr 27, 2024 17:07:56 GMT
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful, or that's the way they see it anyway. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe. Why would anyone do that?
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful
No it is not. The UN passes dozens of resolutions condemning Israel for all of its sins, real and imagined. It does not pass resolutions urging the Palestinians to agree to peace with Israel. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe.
As Israel's ambassador Abba Eban once said, "Some things in Jewish history are too terrible to be believed, but nothing in Jewish history is too terrible to have happened." Why would anyone do that?
If the 20th century has shown anything, it is that human beings can do the most brutal things to other human beings, if they have been indoctrinated in an ideology of hate. I do not believe that the "pro-Palestinian" protests are "celebrating" October 7. Instead they are that your response has been inordinate.
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Post by marsatax on Apr 27, 2024 17:33:52 GMT
The world is pressuring both sides to be peaceful
No it is not. The UN passes dozens of resolutions condemning Israel for all of its sins, real and imagined. It does not pass resolutions urging the Palestinians to agree to peace with Israel. You must admit October 7 is rather difficult to believe.
As Israel's ambassador Abba Eban once said, "Some things in Jewish history are too terrible to be believed, but nothing in Jewish history is too terrible to have happened." Why would anyone do that?
If the 20th century has shown anything, it is that human beings can do the most brutal things to other human beings, if they have been indoctrinated in an ideology of hate. I do not believe that the "pro-Palestinian" protests are "celebrating" October 7. Instead they are that your response has been inordinate. I do not believe that the "pro-Palestinian" protests are "celebrating" October 7.
Certainly some of them are. Note the paragliders on these posters: Instead they are that your response has been inordinate.
I am American, not Israeli. And the response has been insufficient, as Hamas still exists.
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