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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 16:03:01 GMT
Evil is relative, therefore, using categories like "evil" or even "fundamentally evil" is not helpful. Even the columnist in the OP doesn't even try to define "evil", which invalidates much of his column.
I can't speak for the columnist, but I would define "evil" as the violation of a person's or persons' rights, or the desire to do so. Hamas's actions on October 7 obviously satisfy this definition. On the other hand, fighting back against the perpetrators when attacked is not evil. However, if Israel decides to obliterate them by killing almost all Palestinian civilians, then the question who is more evil will be open for debate. But Israel is not trying to do that. Even if we take Hamas's inflated figures, about 1.5% of the population of Gaza has been killed. That is not "almost all". And I bet ten bucks you will not define Jan 6th as the same type of evil as Oct 7, because trying to deprive the American voters of their civil rights is EXACTLY what Trump and his MAGA goons were doing. Evil is like this, when it happens to you, it's evil, when it doesn't, it's not evil.
It was not the same intensity of evil, since it did not include mass murder, mass rapes, mass infanticide, mass mutilation, and mass kidnapping. Nevertheless, trying to overthrow the government is both evil and dangerous. If you think I am pro-Trump because I am generally conservative, you are mistaken. I voted against the guy twice. I even proudly told people, "I'm voting for Hillary Clinton, who I despise." That should show you what I think of Trump. |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 16:04:46 GMT
We tried to rid the world of evil 20 years ago, and it exposed the corruption within our own ranks.
Now we're a little more hesitant to go scorched earth, and rightfully so.
Though we still have a lot of idiot warmongers who refuse to learn from past mistakes.
We tried to rid the world of Communism and more or less succeeded, however the Right Wingers still don't feel safe in the beds. They want us to destroy Islam now and this will not be nearly as easy as defeating Communism. Uh, very few conservatives want is to "destroy Islam". LOL. And the few you find are most likely crackpots. |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 16:08:32 GMT
We tried to rid the world of Communism and more or less succeeded, however the Right Wingers still don't feel safe in the beds. They want us to destroy Islam now and this will not be nearly as easy as defeating Communism. They want to get rid of Islam, LGBTQ people, immigrants, vaccines, science, then it'll be the atheists and most certainly Jewish people, and then they'll just find something else to fear because the conservative amygdala can never be at peace. I am conservative, and I do not want to "get rid of Islam, LGBTQ people, immigrants, vaccines, science, atheists", or Jewish people. LOL Getting rid of vaccines is particularly ridiculous. Only crackpots want to get rid of something that saves lives on a huge scale. Also, I majored in physics in college, I am an atheist, and I was raised Jewish. LOL |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 16:11:58 GMT
They want to get rid of Islam, LGBTQ people, immigrants, vaccines, science, then it'll be the atheists and most certainly Jewish people, and then they'll just find something else to fear because the conservative amygdala can never be at peace. Oh, absolutely. Both Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists loathe the atheist, however, I think militant Christians will go after each other first. The bloodiest religious wars were between Christians. As bad as Islam is, there is no hate like Christian hate. They believe they have the right hate others as much as they want. We should stop calling Allah/Yahweh a war god, he is a hate god. It's been many centuries since the Thirty-Years War, which was probably the last major war between Christian sects. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. These days, the only such conflict left is the one in Northern Ireland, and even that one is calm right now. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jun 15, 2024 16:13:01 GMT
The West has no problem identifying the evil in Islam, the problem is the West can't see its own evil. Nonsense. The West allows free speech and the democratic passing of new laws, which are the means of self-correction. We abolished Jim Crow, took women's rights seriously, legalized homosexuality, and more. If that were true, men like Trump would have no political and/or religious influence. The West can't see its own evil. Christians had next to nothing to do with accomplishing modern civilization. The Church was killing scientists right up until time of Galileo. There was the Social Gospel, which was used by 19th liberal Christians to shame enough obtuse Christians to end slavery, but conservative Christians never supported abolishing Jim Crow, taking women's rights seriously, legalized homosexuality, or more. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 15, 2024 16:13:24 GMT
Oh, absolutely. Both Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists loathe the atheist, however, I think militant Christians will go after each other first. The bloodiest religious wars were between Christians. As bad as Islam is, there is no hate like Christian hate. They believe they have the right hate others as much as they want. We should stop calling Allah/Yahweh a war god, he is a hate god. It's been many centuries since the Thirty-Years War, which was probably the last major war between Christian sects. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. These days, the only such conflict left is the one in Northern Ireland, and even that one is calm right now. It started out as a religious war but within a few years became a national war. |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jun 15, 2024 16:22:16 GMT
Oh, absolutely. Both Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists loathe the atheist, however, I think militant Christians will go after each other first. The bloodiest religious wars were between Christians. As bad as Islam is, there is no hate like Christian hate. They believe they have the right hate others as much as they want. We should stop calling Allah/Yahweh a war god, he is a hate god. It's been many centuries since the Thirty-Years War, which was probably the last major war between Christian sects. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. These days, the only such conflict left is the one in Northern Ireland, and even that one is calm right now. Enforced by secularists, not the Christians. The Pioneers went West with the Bible in their hand following the US Army’s genocide clearing the land of the natives. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 16:49:23 GMT
Nonsense. The West allows free speech and the democratic passing of new laws, which are the means of self-correction. We abolished Jim Crow, took women's rights seriously, legalized homosexuality, and more. If that were true, men like Trump would have no political and/or religious influence. The West can't see its own evil. Christians had next to nothing to do with accomplishing modern civilization. The Church was killing scientists right up until time of Galileo. There was the Social Gospel, which was used by 19th liberal Christians to shame enough obtuse Christians to end slavery, but conservative Christians never supported abolishing Jim Crow, taking women's rights seriously, legalized homosexuality, or more.
That's not true. In science, people like Johannes Kepler and Sir Isaac Newton were devout Christians, and believed that God made the world orderly and understandable, therefore mankind can decode the universe and come up with the laws of nature. The great natural rights philosopher John Locke was a devout Christian, and Christianity served as a base for his philosophy. It was a Christian sect, the Quakers, that got the ball rolling for the abolition of slavery. Most of America's Founding Fathers were Christians. And don't forget that MLK was THE REVEREND Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 17:05:42 GMT
It's been many centuries since the Thirty-Years War, which was probably the last major war between Christian sects. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. These days, the only such conflict left is the one in Northern Ireland, and even that one is calm right now. Enforced by secularists, not the Christians. The Pioneers went West with the Bible in their hand following the US Army’s genocide clearing the land of the natives. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. Enforced by secularists, not the Christians.
Unless I am mistaken, there were very few secularists in Europe at the time of the Thirty Years War. It was Christians who saw the devastation and told each other, "We cannot do this anymore." Also, if you look at the Wikipedia article on religious tolerance, most of the advocates mentioned from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment were Christians. In fact, many were clergymen. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. Many Americans oppose Trump. That's how he lost the last election, remember? |
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Post by cinemachinery on Jun 15, 2024 17:08:31 GMT
Jesus Christ. Have another billion.
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jun 15, 2024 17:15:42 GMT
Enforced by secularists, not the Christians. The Pioneers went West with the Bible in their hand following the US Army’s genocide clearing the land of the natives. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. Enforced by secularists, not the Christians.
Unless I am mistaken, there were very few secularists in Europe at the time of the Thirty Years War. It was Christians who saw the devastation and told each other, "We cannot do this anymore." Also, if you look at the Wikipedia article on religious tolerance, most of the advocates mentioned from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment were Christians. In fact, many were clergymen. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. Many Americans oppose Trump. That's how he lost the last election, remember? None in power, that’s for sure. At that time, the common belief was God himself installed those princes who started the wars. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking. |
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 17:46:22 GMT
The devastation it caused is what led to the idea of religious toleration. Enforced by secularists, not the Christians.
Unless I am mistaken, there were very few secularists in Europe at the time of the Thirty Years War. It was Christians who saw the devastation and told each other, "We cannot do this anymore." Also, if you look at the Wikipedia article on religious tolerance, most of the advocates mentioned from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment were Christians. In fact, many were clergymen. Also, you are ignoring MAGA and their continuing destruction of the USA equalitarian values due to their Fundamentalist religion. As I said the West can't see its own evil. Many Americans oppose Trump. That's how he lost the last election, remember? None in power, that’s for sure. At that time, the common belief was God himself installed those princes who started the wars. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking.
Devout Christian John Locke's book First Treatise of Government argued against the idea of "divine right of Kings", and went a long way to throwing that idea on the ash heap. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA.
I am an atheist, and I do not feel persecuted in any way because of it. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
I have served on jury duty several times, and nobody gave me a "religious test". LOL These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking.
See, this is what I do not understand. You obviously have a phobia of religious fanaticism, that religious fanatics are always just around the corner ready to pounce and take over. But then, why do you condemn Israel for fighting and trying to wipe out a gang of religious fanatics? |
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Post by PaulsLaugh on Jun 15, 2024 18:58:08 GMT
None in power, that’s for sure. At that time, the common belief was God himself installed those princes who started the wars. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking.
Devout Christian John Locke's book First Treatise of Government argued against the idea of "divine right of Kings", and went a long way to throwing that idea on the ash heap. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA.
I am an atheist, and I do not feel persecuted in any way because of it. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
I have served on jury duty several times, and nobody gave me a "religious test". LOL These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking.
See, this is what I do not understand. You obviously have a phobia of religious fanaticism, that religious fanatics are always just around the corner ready to pounce and take over. But then, why do you condemn Israel for fighting and trying to wipe out a gang of religious fanatics? And John Locke is who the FFs referred to when getting religion the fuck out of government, while the Christian Right in the USA that rejects John Locke. Look at the Right treats Trump with “divine right” of breaking the law at his pleasure. A Justice of the Supreme Court the United States, flew a Christian Right flag over his beach house…though he blamed it on his wife. The Gaza War, when you factor in the Right Wing religious fundamentalists from all three religions who are the most involved in either killing as many Muslims or killing as possible or as many Jews as possible, is a religious war. Even if you believe the every Muslim death is justified for your national security, it is evil, even so. Also, I would say the Holocaust was a religious war. |
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Post by SciFive on Jun 15, 2024 19:10:16 GMT
Self-defense is legal and moral.
Human shields are illegal and immoral.
Sinwar says the Gazan deaths are “necessary sacrifices”. He got them killed intentionally.
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Post by marsatax on Jun 15, 2024 19:35:18 GMT
None in power, that’s for sure. At that time, the common belief was God himself installed those princes who started the wars.
Devout Christian John Locke's book First Treatise of Government argued against the idea of "divine right of Kings", and went a long way to throwing that idea on the ash heap. Also, persecution of atheists continues in the USA.
I am an atheist, and I do not feel persecuted in any way because of it. In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century.
I have served on jury duty several times, and nobody gave me a "religious test". LOL These may be zombie laws now, but they can be resurrected via the magic of Magical Thinking.
See, this is what I do not understand. You obviously have a phobia of religious fanaticism, that religious fanatics are always just around the corner ready to pounce and take over. But then, why do you condemn Israel for fighting and trying to wipe out a gang of religious fanatics? And John Locke is who the FFs referred to when getting religion the fuck out of government, while the Christian Right in the USA that rejects John Locke. Look at the Right treats Trump with “divine right” of breaking the law at his pleasure. A Justice of the Supreme Court the United States, flew a Christian Right flag over his beach house…though he blamed it on his wife. The Gaza War, when you factor in the Right Wing religious fundamentalists from all three religions who are the most involved in either killing as many Muslims or killing as possible or as many Jews as possible, is a religious war. Even if you believe the every Muslim death is justified for your national security, it is evil, even so. Also, I would say the Holocaust was a religious war.
Our Declaration of Independence is obviously based on Locke's philosophy. Show me some members of the Christian right who condemn John Locke. Even Trump is not calling to bring religion back into government. (It would be ridiculous if he did, as he is obviously an amoral Machiavellian.) The Gaza War, when you factor in the Right Wing religious fundamentalists from all three religions who are the most involved in either killing as many Muslims or killing as possible or as many Jews as possible, is a religious war.
Hamas and the Palestinians may see it as a religious war. But Israelis who are agnostic or atheist are united on the need to fight this war to destroy Hamas. Even Israeli Arabs are taking Israel's side. The goal of the war is not to advance Judaism, but to destroy a murderous gang that has promised to commit more atrocities. Also, I would say the Holocaust was a religious war.
The Nazis may have believed that they were acting in accordance with God's will. But they did not target the Jews because of the Jews' religion. Instead, they were targeting the Jews as a RACE. Thus, even Jews who converted to Christianity were still targeted. One of the predecessors of the Nazis said, regarding Jewish conversion, "You cannot resign from your race." |
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