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Post by Dracula on Nov 18, 2024 23:41:59 GMT
No, you just don't understand that has nothing to do with religion required to improve a person's life any more than anything else a person credits for improving their life would have to do with that being a requirement to improve anyone's life. No I do understand. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic schools. I was an Agnostic, an Atheist and a believer. So I obviously understand better than you do. Yeah sure man you know more than anyone. This is a matter of logic though, not a pissing contest about who's had more experience with religion. If someone credits for example, boxing for improving their life, does that mean boxing is required to improve people's lives? |
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Post by Dracula on Nov 18, 2024 23:45:31 GMT
Well then, take it up with the Wikipedia editors, if you want. I do not want. I have better things to do. Like show everyone who is objective and intelligent, religion haters like Dracula don't know what they are talking about. ...because believing in fairy tales is all about objectivity and intelligence of course. |
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Post by phludowin on Nov 18, 2024 23:57:56 GMT
Well then, take it up with the Wikipedia editors, if you want. I do not want. I have better things to do. Like show everyone who is objective and intelligent, religion haters like Dracula don't know what they are talking about. Intelligent people know they are subjects, and therefore their point of view is subjective. Or to say it in a more humorous manner: Objectivity is the illusion that observations can be made without an observer. This does not mean that "the thing in itself" which Kant postulated, does not exist. Just that it will never be seen objectively by subjective persons. |
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Post by Olaf Plunket on Nov 19, 2024 0:35:59 GMT
...
I was wondering today why God didn't just snap his fingers and civilize the world. Civilization sure was is slow in in coming.
I've really known all along what the problem is though. If our world is going to be civilized, we -- humans, have to civilize it. It is a sort of the price of the apple.
in the mists of ancient history even the people of God were terribly brutal. "Hey Ehud, we're going to slaughter some Egyptian first born, you coming?" ...
Good question. It's almost as if God became more civilized only after humans did so first. I think there are several possible answers but the one I lean toward is "for the same reason that Zeus didn't".
If by "humans" you mean the people who voted in the last election, I am not seeing your point.
I suppose there is no connection to the stories Trump wins and Spirit airlines goes bankrupt.
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Post by general313 on Nov 19, 2024 0:45:30 GMT
Good question. It's almost as if God became more civilized only after humans did so first. I think there are several possible answers but the one I lean toward is "for the same reason that Zeus didn't".
If by "humans" you mean the people who voted in the last election, I am not seeing your point.
I suppose there is no connection to the stories Trump wins and Spirit airlines goes bankrupt.
I had in mind the ones you were apparently thinking of when you mentioned civilizing the world. |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 1:56:07 GMT
I do not want. I have better things to do. Like show everyone who is objective and intelligent, religion haters like Dracula don't know what they are talking about. Intelligent people know they are subjects, and therefore their point of view is subjective. Or to say it in a more humorous manner: Objectivity is the illusion that observations can be made without an observer. This does not mean that "the thing in itself" which Kant postulated, does not exist. Just that it will never be seen objectively by subjective persons. This is more semantic bullshit. |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 2:03:42 GMT
No I do understand. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic schools. I was an Agnostic, an Atheist and a believer. So I obviously understand better than you do. Yeah sure man you know more than anyone. This is a matter of logic though, not a pissing contest about who's had more experience with religion. If someone credits for example, boxing for improving their life, does that mean boxing is required to improve people's lives? Logically, many people depend on religion to teach them morals and ethics. Morals and ethics they wouldn't get anywhere else. Making the world a better place filled with more people having morals and ethics. A world with more people having morals and ethics is a better world than a world where less people have morals and ethics. That's logical. |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 2:06:33 GMT
I do not want. I have better things to do. Like show everyone who is objective and intelligent, religion haters like Dracula don't know what they are talking about. ...because believing in fairy tales is all about objectivity and intelligence of course. It's not a fairy tale. Just because no one can prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is much about the Universe that man cannot explain. That doesn't mean there is no explanation. |
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Post by Dracula on Nov 19, 2024 3:44:31 GMT
Yeah sure man you know more than anyone. This is a matter of logic though, not a pissing contest about who's had more experience with religion. If someone credits for example, boxing for improving their life, does that mean boxing is required to improve people's lives? Logically, many people depend on religion to teach them morals and ethics. Morals and ethics they wouldn't get anywhere else. Making the world a better place filled with more people having morals and ethics. A world with more people having morals and ethics is a better world than a world where less people have morals and ethics. That's logical. And that's bullshit. In fact, if the reason someone acts moral or ethical is because they figure that gets them brownie points from God, then they're not actually moral or ethical. The development of morals and ethics comes from within, through social interactions and life experiences, being out there and living, getting to know people and their problems and what makes people tick, seeing and understanding what gives people joy or pain, what helps or hurts. Religion doesn't guarantee anyone ends up moral or ethical. Many people may use religion to socialize and perhaps take up causes to help others, but that's no different than a guy hanging out in street corners taking up boxing to keep himself out of trouble, get his life together and develop morals and ethics from going to the gym every day to do something positive and be around positive, hardworking people who are a good influence. Are you saying having morals and ethics is impossible without religion? |
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Post by Dracula on Nov 19, 2024 3:53:50 GMT
...because believing in fairy tales is all about objectivity and intelligence of course. It's not a fairy tale. Just because no one can prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is much about the Universe that man cannot explain. That doesn't mean there is no explanation. It doesn't mean you get to invent explanations out of thin air. I actually believe in God, which is why I think religion is an insult to God, given religion is just about flawed humans pretending to know the word of a higher being they have no business speaking for. |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 4:10:00 GMT
Logically, many people depend on religion to teach them morals and ethics. Morals and ethics they wouldn't get anywhere else. Making the world a better place filled with more people having morals and ethics. A world with more people having morals and ethics is a better world than a world where less people have morals and ethics. That's logical. And that's bullshit. In fact, if the reason someone acts moral or ethical is because they figure that gets them brownie points from God, then they're not actually moral or ethical. The development of morals and ethics comes from within, through social interactions and life experiences, being out there and living, getting to know people and their problems and what makes people tick, seeing and understanding what gives people joy or pain, what helps or hurts. Religion doesn't guarantee anyone ends up moral or ethical. Many people may use religion to socialize and perhaps take up causes to help others, but that's no different than a guy hanging out in street corners taking up boxing to keep himself out of trouble, get his life together and develop morals and ethics from going to the gym every day to do something positive and be around positive, hardworking people who are a good influence. Are you saying having morals and ethics is impossible without religion? I agree with your first paragraph. But people who have religion do that (sometimes). And when they don't, it's still better than not doing the right, moral and ethical thing. Which is just what many people would do if they didn't have religion. I already said you can develop morals and ethics in other ways besides religion. But fear is a great motivator. And Christians fearing retribution from God gets them to do the right thing more often than "Well, it's just the right thing to do". |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 4:11:51 GMT
It's not a fairy tale. Just because no one can prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is much about the Universe that man cannot explain. That doesn't mean there is no explanation. It doesn't mean you get to invent explanations out of thin air. I actually believe in God, which is why I think religion is an insult to God, given religion is just about flawed humans pretending to know the word of a higher being they have no business speaking for. What is your definition of religion? You say you have faith. But no religion? |
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Post by abbey1227 on Nov 19, 2024 4:28:04 GMT
I already said you can develop morals and ethics in other ways besides religion. But fear is a great motivator. And Christians fearing retribution from God gets them to do the right thing more often than "Well, it's just the right thing to do".
That was one of the first conversations I had with a Bible-thumpin' buddy of mine. He doesn't think so, but I disagree with him on that.
The Golden Rule is a rational standard everyone can see the merits of, imo.
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Post by Dracula on Nov 19, 2024 4:31:28 GMT
And that's bullshit. In fact, if the reason someone acts moral or ethical is because they figure that gets them brownie points from God, then they're not actually moral or ethical. The development of morals and ethics comes from within, through social interactions and life experiences, being out there and living, getting to know people and their problems and what makes people tick, seeing and understanding what gives people joy or pain, what helps or hurts. Religion doesn't guarantee anyone ends up moral or ethical. Many people may use religion to socialize and perhaps take up causes to help others, but that's no different than a guy hanging out in street corners taking up boxing to keep himself out of trouble, get his life together and develop morals and ethics from going to the gym every day to do something positive and be around positive, hardworking people who are a good influence. Are you saying having morals and ethics is impossible without religion? I agree with your first paragraph. But people who have religion do that (sometimes). And when they don't, it's still better than not doing the right, moral and ethical thing. Which is just what many people would do if they didn't have religion. I already said you can develop morals and ethics in other ways besides religion. But fear is a great motivator. And Christians fearing retribution from God gets them to do the right thing more often than "Well, it's just the right thing to do". You interpreted what I just said completely backwards. The whole point of what I just explained to you about morals and ethics being something you develop through life experiences and understanding people is to emphasize that it's NOT something that comes from just reading something that tells you "well, it's just the right thing to do." Having morals and ethics is about WANTING to do the right thing because of that right thing being what makes SENSE and what feels right and good to the person doing it. Doing something out of fear of retribution has nothing to do with having morals and ethics. |
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Post by movieliker on Nov 19, 2024 4:39:52 GMT
I agree with your first paragraph. But people who have religion do that (sometimes). And when they don't, it's still better than not doing the right, moral and ethical thing. Which is just what many people would do if they didn't have religion. I already said you can develop morals and ethics in other ways besides religion. But fear is a great motivator. And Christians fearing retribution from God gets them to do the right thing more often than "Well, it's just the right thing to do". You interpreted what I just said completely backwards. The whole point of what I just explained to you about morals and ethics being something you develop through life experiences and understanding people is to emphasize that it's NOT something that comes from just reading something that tells you "well, it's the right thing to do." Having morals and ethics is about WANTING to do the right thing because of that right thing being what makes SENSE and what feels right and good to the person doing it. Doing something out of fear of retribution has nothing to do with having morals and ethics. That is ridiculous. Little kids grow up in the church. Little kids are not going to just do the right thing. Fear is the best way to get them to do the right thing even when it involves sacrifice. Later on as they grow up, they can question the existence of God, and why sacrifice, discipline and doing right by others is beneficial in the long run. |
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