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Post by yggdrasil on Mar 31, 2022 15:09:00 GMT
It's the "Church" that's bad though. As Lenny Bruce said "I'm for God, just against Religion". That's why the early Church got rid of Gnosticism and made it a heresy, it didn't require the Church aspect so men couldn't take any power for themselves and act as mouthpieces for the "divine". It's funny when people say this but they never mention all the good they do too. Could there be some bad actors? Sure, just like any other organization They do some good charitable works these days,but it shouldn't take nearly 2 millennia for good deeds to start outweighing a quest for power, finance and control. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Vatican bank will know the criminality and corruption that underlines and undermines the whole of worldwide catholicism. And that's not even including predatory Priests, sexual abuse cover ups and the secret smuggling of Nazi war criminals to South america. If the Catholic Church were a person, they would be far beyond the hope of redemption. |
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Post by yggdrasil on Mar 31, 2022 15:17:03 GMT
I would just like to add the Church was instrumentally important in the past by keeping the Muslims at bay ie the Crusades I mean look what happened in Spain The Crusades had very little to do with "keeping Muslims at bay". they were about "second sons" enriching themselves and earning Papal indulgencies and the Papacy strengthening and enriching itself. Dan Jones' excellent book "Crusaders" is well worth reading for anyone interested in the whole history of the "Crusades" |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 1, 2022 2:46:10 GMT
I would just like to add the Church was instrumentally important in the past by keeping the Muslims at bay ie the Crusades I mean look what happened in Spain The Crusades had very little to do with "keeping Muslims at bay". they were about "second sons" enriching themselves and earning Papal indulgencies and the Papacy strengthening and enriching itself. Dan Jones' excellent book "Crusaders" is well worth reading for anyone interested in the whole history of the "Crusades"
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 1, 2022 2:50:33 GMT
It's funny when people say this but they never mention all the good they do too. Could there be some bad actors? Sure, just like any other organization They do some good charitable works these days,but it shouldn't take nearly 2 millennia for good deeds to start outweighing a quest for power, finance and control. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Vatican bank will know the criminality and corruption that underlines and undermines the whole of worldwide catholicism. And that's not even including predatory Priests, sexual abuse cover ups and the secret smuggling of Nazi war criminals to South america. If the Catholic Church were a person, they would be far beyond the hope of redemption. Nothing's ever perfect. You really need to take the past into account too. For reference, there were kings around back then. Sure it still has issues today but there are many churches with many good priests. A few bad apples doesnt make the whole thing rotten. It is still a worthy cause |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 1, 2022 14:51:34 GMT
The Crusades had very little to do with "keeping Muslims at bay". they were about "second sons" enriching themselves and earning Papal indulgencies and the Papacy strengthening and enriching itself. Dan Jones' excellent book "Crusaders" is well worth reading for anyone interested in the whole history of the "Crusades"
linkAs I say, the book is extremely comprehensive, it is way too narrow to see it as a means to end any spread of Islam. Jerusalem regularly changed hands through the centuries, there was far more in play than any spread of Islam otherwise all the fighting would have been done in the Iberian peninsula. If anything it was to (re)claim the so called home of Christianity from Islam, but we should also remember that Islam was far more culturally and scientifically advanced than Western thought was at that time, Islam could certainly have advanced our thought had it spread more at that time. Strange how the two swopped places in later centuries. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 11:35:43 GMT
Nothing to do with Christianity, just an aspect of dualism, the yang to the yin, the darkness to light, the goodness to bad. You have a spiritual belief for when good happens you need one to blame for the failure of the crops etc. You have to believe in the bible and Christ if you want to discuss whether or not Lucifer exists. Otherwise what is the point. |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 2, 2022 12:18:56 GMT
Nothing to do with Christianity, just an aspect of dualism, the yang to the yin, the darkness to light, the goodness to bad. You have a spiritual belief for when good happens you need one to blame for the failure of the crops etc. You have to believe in the bible and Christ if you want to discuss whether or not Lucifer exists. Otherwise what is the point. That's ridiculous, as I say, the biblical "character" of Satan/lucifer etc, is just an aspect of the dualism at the heart of all religions. If you chose to take it literally that's up to you. "Belief" has nothing to do with the discussion of religion, in fact it severely limits any credible ability to analyse biblical content with an open mind. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 12:30:46 GMT
You have to believe in the bible and Christ if you want to discuss whether or not Lucifer exists. Otherwise what is the point. That's ridiculous, as I say, the biblical "character" of Satan/lucifer etc, is just an aspect of the dualism at the heart of all religions. If you chose to take it literally that's up to you. "Belief" has nothing to do with the discussion of religion, in fact it severely limits any credible ability to analyse biblical content with an open mind. What is the point of discussing Lucifers existence then? To be more clear..I'm not saying you can't discuss religion. I'm saying it's pointless to discuss lucifers existence. |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 2, 2022 13:39:04 GMT
That's ridiculous, as I say, the biblical "character" of Satan/lucifer etc, is just an aspect of the dualism at the heart of all religions. If you chose to take it literally that's up to you. "Belief" has nothing to do with the discussion of religion, in fact it severely limits any credible ability to analyse biblical content with an open mind. What is the point of discussing Lucifers existence then? To be more clear..I'm not saying you can't discuss religion. I'm saying it's pointless to discuss lucifers existence. I thought we were discussing the concept, not the actual existence of a physical creature, even the Church sees "hell" as a allegory these days, doesn't it? rather than a literal place. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 14:18:23 GMT
What is the point of discussing Lucifers existence then? To be more clear..I'm not saying you can't discuss religion. I'm saying it's pointless to discuss lucifers existence. I thought we were discussing the concept, not the actual existence of a physical creature, even the Church sees "hell" as a allegory these days, doesn't it? rather than a literal place. If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place. I was just going by what the OP said specifically "Do you acknowledge his existence?" |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 2, 2022 15:52:43 GMT
I thought we were discussing the concept, not the actual existence of a physical creature, even the Church sees "hell" as a allegory these days, doesn't it? rather than a literal place. If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place. I was just going by what the OP said specifically "Do you acknowledge his existence?" "If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place." Happy to be proven wrong but I thought the current Pope Francis changed that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 16:08:04 GMT
If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place. I was just going by what the OP said specifically "Do you acknowledge his existence?" "If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place." Happy to be proven wrong but I thought the current Pope Francis changed that. No Pope has the authority to change any moral laws set by God or Christ. The Pope may change laws established by the Church but even then it's not something that happens often. |
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Post by yggdrasil on Apr 2, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
"If you mean the Catholic Church, they teach that hell is a real place." Happy to be proven wrong but I thought the current Pope Francis changed that. No Pope has the authority to change any moral laws set by God or Christ. The Pope may change laws established by the Church but even then it's not something that happens often. May have been walked back. www.vox.com/2018/3/30/17179952/pope-francis-hell-vatican-interview-scalfari-italian |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 16:25:45 GMT
Are you suggesting that website speaks for the Church? ![[suspicious]](//storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/EQjoVeYwBoNmTqbHV0bu.png) |
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Post by [--Leviathan--] on Apr 6, 2022 14:00:40 GMT
Are you suggesting that website speaks for the Church? ![[suspicious]](//storage2.proboards.com/6870873/images/EQjoVeYwBoNmTqbHV0bu.png) So what do you make of Lucifer then? |
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![[--Leviathan--] Avatar](https://i.imgflip.com/6ylsod.jpg)
![[suspicious]](http://storage.proboards.com/6870873/images/EQjoVeYwBoNmTqbHV0bu.png)
![[suspicious]](http://storage2.proboards.com/6870873/images/EQjoVeYwBoNmTqbHV0bu.png)