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Post by Flying Monkeys on Aug 10, 2023 5:38:10 GMT
Someone should tell this fuckwit that the ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Meanwhile, all those citizens concerned about immigration™ should stop voting for the party that has increased it so much during their 13 years in office. Kindly explain how the party has increased it. They haven't - it has increased for other reasons and they can't stop it due to European laws. Not everything that happens during a government's tenure is caused by that government and to suggest so is completely disingenuous.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Aug 10, 2023 8:06:52 GMT
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Aug 10, 2023 8:42:10 GMT
Fair point on the HK thing but I don't think standard, legal migration is as simple as them changing the numbers - a load of it comes from people who have a supposed human right to bring 50 family members over. That is surely driven by EU/ECHR laws and rulings, no? You simply cannot control the numbers when such rights are in place.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Aug 10, 2023 9:04:39 GMT
Fair point on the HK thing but I don't think standard, legal migration is as simple as them changing the numbers - a load of it comes from people who have a supposed human right to bring 50 family members over. That is surely driven by EU/ECHR laws and rulings, no? You simply cannot control the numbers when such rights are in place. Well the govt is in control of the numbers who come over here to study and work. And for the Ukraine, Afghanistan, HK humanitarian schemes. And together they form the vast majority of immigrants. It’s the asylum seekers where treaties with the UN etc. have some bearing, but that was 76,000 out of a total of 1.2 million in 2022 according to that second link I posted.
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Post by Stammerhead on Aug 10, 2023 9:39:59 GMT
We should. Why do we need it? Having human rights might come in handy one day.
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Post by Nogbad on Aug 10, 2023 9:53:46 GMT
Someone should tell this fuckwit that the ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Meanwhile, all those citizens concerned about immigration™ should stop voting for the party that has increased it so much during their 13 years in office. Kindly explain how the party has increased it. They haven't - it has increased for other reasons and they can't stop it due to European laws. Not everything that happens during a government's tenure is caused by that government and to suggest so is completely disingenuous. www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day/sophistry-2018-07-06
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Aug 10, 2023 10:50:28 GMT
Kindly explain how the party has increased it. They haven't - it has increased for other reasons and they can't stop it due to European laws. Not everything that happens during a government's tenure is caused by that government and to suggest so is completely disingenuous. www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day/sophistry-2018-07-06Nice dodge. You obviously can't explain it.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Aug 10, 2023 10:54:17 GMT
Nice dodge. You obviously can't explain it. I did though! The UK govt are almost wholly responsible for the immigration numbers, not the UN or ECHR and not the EU (since Brexit).
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Post by Nogbad on Aug 10, 2023 10:54:18 GMT
Nice dodge. You obviously can't explain it. Given that I don't give a shit about immigration, I don't feel the need to explain anything. I think my dodge (if that's what it is) is less dodgier than your dodge. ETA - See Carl above, and there's a man who obsesses about immigration 24/7, so you can probably trust him.
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Aug 10, 2023 11:01:44 GMT
Nice dodge. You obviously can't explain it. I did though! The UK govt are almost wholly responsible for the immigration numbers, not the UN or ECHR and not the EU (since Brexit). Put your glasses on, grandpa!
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Post by Flying Monkeys on Aug 10, 2023 11:03:44 GMT
Nice dodge. You obviously can't explain it. Given that I don't give a shit about immigration, I don't feel the need to explain anything. You made a claim that doesn't make sense. Feel free not to explain but your point carries no weight if you don't. And I made no dodge. No-one asked me anything, so how could I dodge anything? That also doesn't make sense!
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 10, 2023 11:06:51 GMT
We should. Why do we need it? Having human rights might come in handy one day. Is the United States a member of the ECHR?
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Post by yggdrasil on Aug 10, 2023 11:13:38 GMT
Just browse through the charta and you will get an idea of what might be important for you. For example: the more Tories fight against civil service, the more Art. 41 may gain importance: Article 41 - Right to good administration fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/41-right-good-administration
If I was a campaigner for keeping the charta I'd print the charta and pointed to all relevant articles the plutocracy wants to get rid off - at the cost of you all. Leaving the ECHR will be more costly than most of you are aware of, far far more costly.
The whole Rwanda thingy has been made up to trick you again into losing more of your rights! So Article 41 protected the people of Italy, Spain and Greece did it? Don't you lot hate the Hungarian and Polish governments? Hows 41 working there? And heres the thing. I don't want the EU to determine whether my government is good or bad. Thats the entire bloody point of leaving the EU.... But you don't want our Judges to decide it either, do you? We have all seen the Daily Mail type headlines of "enemy of the people" when British judges have also backed human rights decisions. These are not rulings on the policy they are rulings that Rwanda is not a safe destination and frankly anyone with a lick of sense knows that, we have Rwandan refugees in this country who are deemed unable to go back for their own safety. If the Government made a deal with a country deemed "safe" it wouldn't be a problem, the policy has been found to be okay, just not the destination. The Conservatives refused to let BRITISH judges make decisions as to the possible safety and legality of a trade deal with the genocidal Chinese, it's not the ECHR they have a problem with, it's any judgement from any court that they don't agree with. Anyway, we all know it's about using xenophobia to attempt to draw a political line between themselves and the Labour party as immigrants and "woke" will be the only issues they will fight a general election on, they can no longer use any of the traditional Tory strong points such as the economy as they have completely destroyed it.
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 10, 2023 11:18:40 GMT
So Article 41 protected the people of Italy, Spain and Greece did it? Don't you lot hate the Hungarian and Polish governments? Hows 41 working there? And heres the thing. I don't want the EU to determine whether my government is good or bad. Thats the entire bloody point of leaving the EU.... But you don't want our Judges to decide it either, do you? We have all seen the Daily Mail type headlines of "enemy of the people" when British judges have also backed human rights decisions. These are not rulings on the policy they are rulings that Rwanda is not a safe destination and frankly anyone with a lick of sense knows that, we have Rwandan refugees in this country who are deemed unable to go back for their own safety. If the Government made a deal with a country deemed "safe" it wouldn't be a problem, the policy has been found to be okay, just not the destination. The Conservatives refused to let BRITISH judges make decisions as to the possible safety and legality of a trade deal with the genocidal Chinese, it's not the ECHR they have a problem with, it's any judgement from any court that they don't agree with. Anyway, we all know it's about using xenophobia to attempt to draw a political line between themselves and the Labour party as immigrants and "woke" will be the only issues they will fight a general election on, they can no longer use any of the traditional Tory strong points such as the economy as they have completely destroyed it. British judges still have to follow the European Court and ECHR. That isn't how our country is supposed to work. The courts don't make laws.
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Post by notoriousnobbi on Aug 10, 2023 11:19:31 GMT
What a shock, the conservative is against human rights. Oh yawn. When there's an army of lawyers using a pathetically weak system by briefing their clients with lies and the ECHR sides with them and we get the burden on our society, that's not "human rights" at work, that's just plain abuse. It's time for this bullshit to be kicked out and sensible laws to be put in place. If I was a Briton and was asked whether to leave ECHR without having a look into a guaranteed and complete list of a new British Charta with British sensible articles I would deny leaving. The pattern of REUL would be repeated. (this topic has slipped under the radar of British media) The new Charta, let's call it 'British Charta of Human Rights' (BCHR) can only be called 'world-beating' if some Commonwealth nations decide to take it as well.
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